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    (Original post by Tempest II)
    Surely the proven fact that as people get older they tend to vote Conservative kinda goes against the whole immaturity argument?
    As someone who hates all politicians to a degree (I just vote for the one closest to my feelings) what I tend to notice and people have said along the lines of when they are young they see all the problems in the world and want to help therefore say throw money at things, when they settle down and work and pay a mortgage and have a growing family they realise that money needs to come from somewhere so their political standpoint changes.

    At most what I agree about is that we can't spend spend spend, but what I don't agree with is punishing the genuine poor and disabled and it should be more politicians care less about their own back pocket, things like the NHS and education should be better run, borders closed as even immigrants who come here to work only benefit the rich and put more strain as more people needing homes, having kids, using the NHS, less jobs to go around etc.

    Instead the Tories like to point fingers and talk about how poor people are lazy whilst benefitting from cheap foreign labour and not even having to live in areas where they live or affect.
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    (Original post by drbluebox)
    As someone who hates all politicians to a degree (I just vote for the one closest to my feelings) what I tend to notice and people have said along the lines of when they are young they see all the problems in the world and want to help therefore say throw money at things, when they settle down and work and pay a mortgage and have a growing family they realise that money needs to come from somewhere so their political standpoint changes.

    At most what I agree about is that we can't spend spend spend, but what I don't agree with is punishing the genuine poor and disabled and it should be more politicians care less about their own back pocket, things like the NHS and education should be better run, borders closed as even immigrants who come here to work only benefit the rich and put more strain as more people needing homes, having kids, using the NHS, less jobs to go around etc.

    Instead the Tories like to point fingers and talk about how poor people are lazy whilst benefitting from cheap foreign labour and not even having to live in areas where they live or affect.
    You do realise that the majority of Conservatives support restricted immigration? It's the Tory party currently split in half regarding Europe and one of the biggest issues is the freedom of movement. It's Labour who have championed massive immigration arguably to boost their own election results as most immigrates who do vote tend to vote Labour.
    Obviously there are big business supporting Conservatives out there who support fairly unrestricted migration to keep wages low but they certainly seem to be in a minority compared to Conservatives who want an Australian style system for ALL migrants whether they be EU or non EU.
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    (Original post by Tempest II)
    You do realise that the majority of Conservatives support restricted immigration? It's the Tory party currently split in half regarding Europe and one of the biggest issues is the freedom of movement. It's Labour who have championed massive immigration arguably to boost their own election results as most immigrates who do vote tend to vote Labour.
    Obviously there are big business supporting Conservatives out there who support fairly unrestricted migration to keep wages low but they certainly seem to be in a minority compared to Conservatives who want an Australian style system for ALL migrants whether they be EU or non EU.
    You do realise as well that politicians like to lie and do what makes them look good and can say one thing and mean another..

    Its a variation of that old saying, if another party was in power we wouldn't have the problems we have, we would have a totally different set of problems.

    As said before most people who voted tory are older, so thats an age where they have family and kids so they want to pay out as little as possible and ge tthe most return(logical in one way, hugely flawed in execution)

    Theres something my father says about the tories which I agree with, and is a big reason I dislike them, they act like every penny spent no matter where it goes comes out of their personal back pockets (and in regards to the rich like MPs that is even more annoying since they find ways to pay as minimal tax as possible but think they have have power over every penny)
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    (Original post by StrangeBanana)
    I was responding to the (utterly flawed) idea that all poor people are poor because they "can't be bothered" or "didn't try at school". Do you support that notion?
    No I don't and no-one is talking about 'all poor people'.

    Still your argument that there are things out of our control really means nothing. If the idea you disagree with is utterly flawed as you say it is then you should be able to come up with a strong argument.


    (Original post by StrangeBanana)
    Whether the world is deterministic or not is still a completely open question, so I'm not sure what makes you so confident in that statement.
    It only remains an open question in the philosophical community. In other areas of life it is pretty much a given that we have free will.

    Do you not believe we have free will?
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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    Nothing wrong with the class system, and I say that as someone on the "wrong end" of it.
    So the aim of the ruling classes is to keep the poor poorer Big society eh
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    (Original post by _icecream)
    So the aim of the ruling classes is to keep the poor poorer Big society eh
    At some point you realise that there's not really any such thing as the ruling classes and it's just some sort of conspiracy like the illuminati or whatever.
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    (Original post by xylas)
    No I don't and no-one is talking about 'all poor people'.
    Good to hear; the person I originally replied to certainly was.

    (Original post by xylas)
    Still your argument that there are things out of our control really means nothing. If the idea you disagree with is utterly flawed as you say it is then you should be able to come up with a strong argument.
    It's a fact. I'm not arguing for or against anything.

    (Original post by xylas)
    It only remains an open question in the philosophical community. In other areas of life it is pretty much a given that we have free will.

    Do you not believe we have free will?
    No, it is not a given that free will exists. We all just live assuming that it does, because it's incredibly uncomfortable to think that it's an illusion.

    Dunno.
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    (Original post by StrangeBanana)
    Good to hear; the person I originally replied to certainly was.
    Incorrect. He said:

    "I'm conservative because I believe people who earn more money than others should be allowed to keep the difference, not dish it out to the people who can't be bothered to get a job or didn't try at school.".

    Nowhere does he say 'all poor people' which reveals your prejudices...

    (Original post by StrangeBanana)
    It's a fact. I'm not arguing for or against anything.
    You are using what you think to be a fact as an argument. You don't just go around telling people random facts for no reason unless you're very weird/insane...


    (Original post by StrangeBanana)
    No, it is not a given that free will exists. We all just live assuming that it does, because it's incredibly uncomfortable to think that it's an illusion.

    Dunno.
    If you don't know then you can't say it is an assumption. All you can say is that you yourself are undecided on the matter. The rest of the world however is not.
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    (Original post by xylas)
    Incorrect. He said:

    "I'm conservative because I believe people who earn more money than others should be allowed to keep the difference, not dish it out to the people who can't be bothered to get a job or didn't try at school.".

    Nowhere does he say 'all poor people' which reveals your prejudices...
    I'm not going to argue the semantics of this, it's very clear what he's implying

    lol, what prejudice do you think I have?

    (Original post by xylas)
    You are using what you think to be a fact as an argument. You don't just go around telling people random facts for no reason unless you're very weird/insane...
    An argument for/against what?

    (Original post by xylas)
    If you don't know then you can't say it is an assumption. All you can say is that you yourself are undecided on the matter. The rest of the world however is not.
    You don't speak for the "rest of the world"; give me some hard evidence free will exists, or pipe down
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    (Original post by StrangeBanana)
    I'm not going to argue the semantics of this, it's very clear what he's implying

    lol, what prejudice do you think I have?

    An argument for/against what?

    You don't speak for the "rest of the world"; give me some hard evidence free will exists, or pipe down
    1) It's not semantics, what you said was just plain wrong (others would call it a lie).

    2) lol your prejudice is so obvious with what you just said "it's very clear what he's implying". In a discussion/debate you should never base what you're saying on what YOU think someone implies only what they actually say. That is prejudice.

    3) wow it really takes a lot to explain things to you... I'll dumb it down: You posted what you thought to be a fact. You didn't just post it out of context, you replied to someone's post that you disagree with. Although it was a very weak argument, your point was that 'hard work is not the only thing that matters since a lot of things are out of your control anyway'. This is against what the person was saying that you disagree with i.e. 'if you don't work hard you should not expect other people who make more money than you to give you some of it'.

    Is that clear now? Or are you gonna argue with me about something so obvious and then say you are not arguing lol.

    4) I don't have to speak for the rest of the world to know that not everyone is like you. That does not need proving because it is a fact. Now since you are undecided whether or not we have free will you can't tell me that there isn't. But I am not undecided so I can say that I believe free will to be a certainty. Maybe not a certainty to all philosophers but a certainty in ordinary life.

    If you want to talk more about this ^^ post on my thread http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show....php?t=3974443
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    (Original post by drbluebox)
    You do realise as well that politicians like to lie and do what makes them look good and can say one thing and mean another..

    Its a variation of that old saying, if another party was in power we wouldn't have the problems we have, we would have a totally different set of problems.

    As said before most people who voted tory are older, so thats an age where they have family and kids so they want to pay out as little as possible and ge tthe most return(logical in one way, hugely flawed in execution)

    Theres something my father says about the tories which I agree with, and is a big reason I dislike them, they act like every penny spent no matter where it goes comes out of their personal back pockets (and in regards to the rich like MPs that is even more annoying since they find ways to pay as minimal tax as possible but think they have have power over every penny)
    After Blair and Iraq, Clegg and tuition fees, Cameron and the first EU referendum (which should have been held between 2010-15) I'm well aware of how politicians operate. Sometimes the lies aren't intentional - circumstances change and you have to be pragmatic.
    Blair, on the other hand, looks like he deliberately misled the British people.

    Why did I vote Conservative at the last two elections? Because I'd prefer a smaller government with less areas for politicians to lie/manipulate the truth. I believe the British people on the whole can decide more effectively what they want to spend their own money on rather than the Govt except the obvious ones like Defence, NHS, education where a national perspective is required.

    I'd much much rather have politicians in charge who do take a look at the figures and have a think whether or not we really need to spend that much of OUR money (not their's) on certain projects rather than spending with little regard.

    Politics should be seen by those in it as public service and a duty for the greater good of the UK and its citizens, not as a way to feather your own nest.
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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    At some point you realise that there's not really any such thing as the ruling classes and it's just some sort of conspiracy like the illuminati or whatever.
    You mean there's no influential upper class individuals who use government influence to enrich themselves at the expense of others?

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    (Original post by Tempest II)
    After Blair and Iraq, Clegg and tuition fees, Cameron and the first EU referendum (which should have been held between 2010-15) I'm well aware of how politicians operate. Sometimes the lies aren't intentional - circumstances change and you have to be pragmatic.
    Blair, on the other hand, looks like he deliberately misled the British people.

    Why did I vote Conservative at the last two elections? Because I'd prefer a smaller government with less areas for politicians to lie/manipulate the truth. I believe the British people on the whole can decide more effectively what they want to spend their own money on rather than the Govt except the obvious ones like Defence, NHS, education where a national perspective is required.

    I'd much much rather have politicians in charge who do take a look at the figures and have a think whether or not we really need to spend that much of OUR money (not their's) on certain projects rather than spending with little regard.

    Politics should be seen by those in it as public service and a duty for the greater good of the UK and its citizens, not as a way to feather your own nest.
    So if not Health, Defence and education, what would you offer up privately?

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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    I know that is an entirely subjective argument and therefore bait but please expand. You don't have to radically change the status-quo for the working poor to benefit as they were doing until about 03 (that's about when home ownership levels peaked, real wages in 07).

    Agreed. Johnson is more a populist with Thatcherite instincts.
    You mean the Labour years? For me, the introduction of the minimum wage (opposed by the Conservatives at the time) is an example of such a change. The post-Thatcher Conservatives lack political will power. And when they do act, it's not in the best interests of the majority.
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    [QUOTE=Tempest II;63669713. Politics should be seen by those in it as public service and a duty for the greater good of the UK and its citizens, not as a way to feather your own nest.[/QUOTE]

    So the greater good is cutting money to the vulnerable? And stupidly cutting funding to things that help people find work which costs them more money in the long term?

    You mean the figures when they don't bother to cut their expenses then act like the poor are scroungers?

    No they don't need to spend as much money as long as its spent on a efficient service which it isn't, the DWP is a nightmare to deal with and instead of punishing the real scroungers they target the easily santioned who are people who can't defend themselves be it due to bad education opportunities (which the government were a part of due to funding) cutbacks in things like social work for the vulnerable.

    If instead of such greed/handshaking between friends they had a proper work experience programme instead of shoving unpaid workers into Tory supporters laps people would be more sympathetic.

    I think in reality more should be done to stop rouge landlords charging massive rents/buying up ex council properties for huge rents meaning tenants have to get high benefits to cover the rent especially in London that way higher benefits werent needed than cutting benefits then saying "well you get too much"

    When I grew up the tories were in power, my parents went without food to feed me and my brother, rotten floorboards and mouldy walls, where was the help from the Tories? They just want to poor to live in squalor so they don't pay a penny (and get cheap staff as they are desperate)

    Where I grew up there was a huge shortage of work, even 20 or more years ago people were travelling to the nearest city 60 miles away or the nearest large town 40 miles away as factories were closing but at least local businesses had it ok and a few large employers about giving high wages if you were lucky enough.

    So even then unemployment was high, since then all but one local large employer has closed (and the one left hires only foreign labour from 20 miles away) but according to statistics unemployment has FALLEN, how can that be true? Is it because people are on zero hour contracts?
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    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    So if not Health, Defence and education, what would you offer up privately?

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    There's not much left if I remember correctly. Speaking off the top of my head: the Met Office (it always seems to be wrong anyway) and certain railway lines (and I mean properly do it so we have multiple companies running trains along each line rather than the system we have currently which is pretty much a corporate monopoly).
    I'm not sure what banks the Govt still owns after the financial crisis.
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    (Original post by drbluebox)
    So the greater good is cutting money to the vulnerable? And stupidly cutting funding to things that help people find work which costs them more money in the long term?

    You mean the figures when they don't bother to cut their expenses then act like the poor are scroungers?

    No they don't need to spend as much money as long as its spent on a efficient service which it isn't, the DWP is a nightmare to deal with and instead of punishing the real scroungers they target the easily santioned who are people who can't defend themselves be it due to bad education opportunities (which the government were a part of due to funding) cutbacks in things like social work for the vulnerable.

    If instead of such greed/handshaking between friends they had a proper work experience programme instead of shoving unpaid workers into Tory supporters laps people would be more sympathetic.

    I think in reality more should be done to stop rouge landlords charging massive rents/buying up ex council properties for huge rents meaning tenants have to get high benefits to cover the rent especially in London that way higher benefits werent needed than cutting benefits then saying "well you get too much"

    When I grew up the tories were in power, my parents went without food to feed me and my brother, rotten floorboards and mouldy walls, where was the help from the Tories? They just want to poor to live in squalor so they don't pay a penny (and get cheap staff as they are desperate)

    Where I grew up there was a huge shortage of work, even 20 or more years ago people were travelling to the nearest city 60 miles away or the nearest large town 40 miles away as factories were closing but at least local businesses had it ok and a few large employers about giving high wages if you were lucky enough.

    So even then unemployment was high, since then all but one local large employer has closed (and the one left hires only foreign labour from 20 miles away) but according to statistics unemployment has FALLEN, how can that be true? Is it because people are on zero hour contracts?
    It sounds like you mistake me for someone who agrees whole heartily with everything the current government has done. I can assure you that I don't feel that way. The cuts made to policing and Defence after the 2010 election caused a lot of damage. The cuts to Defence have stopped at least temporarily so we can meet the NATO 2% target. I'm not happy to see that the police are still being cut.

    When the UK's welfare bill is £110 Billion then I'm not surprised the government wants to reduce it. I'm glad that pressure has meant that hopefully disability benefit isn't going to be cut. The focus should be on things like child benefit after the second child.
    The amount of interest the UK pays on its debt is more than the entire Defence budget.

    Neither of my parents did well at school. I got more qualifications than they did put together and they've done pretty well for themselves.
    I don't know anything about your family or situation so I can't comment. But I'm a fan of personal liberty and of people forging their own path with their own money. The government should and does have welfare packages to help but sometimes people have to take into account their own actions and choices, not just what the government does.
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    (Original post by Mayhem™)
    It's one of their aspects; oh and cry me a river because the losers at school ended up being cleaners.
    You're incredibly naive and sheltered if you believe that everyone in low paid jobs didn't work hard enough at school or are lazy and uneducated.

    Open your eyes and look around you at graduate underemployment. What decade do you think you're living in?

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    (Original post by xylas)
    1) It's not semantics, what you said was just plain wrong (others would call it a lie).

    2) lol your prejudice is so obvious with what you just said "it's very clear what he's implying". In a discussion/debate you should never base what you're saying on what YOU think someone implies only what they actually say. That is prejudice.

    3) wow it really takes a lot to explain things to you... I'll dumb it down: You posted what you thought to be a fact. You didn't just post it out of context, you replied to someone's post that you disagree with. Although it was a very weak argument, your point was that 'hard work is not the only thing that matters since a lot of things are out of your control anyway'. This is against what the person was saying that you disagree with i.e. 'if you don't work hard you should not expect other people who make more money than you to give you some of it'.
    Okay :yy:

    (Original post by xylas)
    4) I don't have to speak for the rest of the world to know that not everyone is like you. That does not need proving because it is a fact. Now since you are undecided whether or not we have free will you can't tell me that there isn't. But I am not undecided so I can say that I believe free will to be a certainty. Maybe not a certainty to all philosophers but a certainty in ordinary life.
    Basically, all you've said is "I strongly believe in free will." That's fine, but it's not evidence that you're right.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    You mean the Labour years? For me, the introduction of the minimum wage (opposed by the Conservatives at the time) is an example of such a change. The post-Thatcher Conservatives lack political will power. And when they do act, it's not in the best interests of the majority.
    93-03 was the best period for me and much of the credit does go to the Major government (Blair even accepted they'd left a golden economy). Your argument was that they could only stem the bleed, never make things better.

    That's not to say that Labour can't make things better either but your argument was far too polarized.
 
 
 
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