Turn on thread page Beta

Could Muslims do more against terrorists? watch

    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    But murdering does not go against the Quran
    Murdering definitely goes against the Quran!! You're not a Muslim after all, so you obv don't know much about Islam!

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/no_murder.htm
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by FluffyCherry)
    Murdering definitely goes against the Quran!! You're not a Muslim after all, so you obv don't know much about Islam!

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/no_murder.htm



    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



    Muslim (20:4645) – “…He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa’id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!”Muslim (20:4696) – “the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: ‘One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.'”Muslim (19:4321-4323) – Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: “They are of them (meaning the enemy).”Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, “Kill any Jew who falls under your power.” Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad’s men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.Tabari 9:69 “Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us” The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.Ibn Ishaq: 327 – “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”Ibn Ishaq: 990 – Lest anyone think that cutting off someone’s head while screaming ‘Allah Akbar!’ is a modern custom, here is an account of that very practice under Muhammad, who seems to approve.Ibn Ishaq: 992 – “Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah.” Muhammad’s instructions to his men prior to a military raid.The Quran:
    Quran (2:191-193) – “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]… but if desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.”
    There is a good case to be made that the textual context of this particular passage is defensive war, even if the historical context was not. However, there are also two worrisome pieces to this verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of “persecution” (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until “religion is for Allah.” The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.Quran (2:244) – “Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.”Quran (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.” Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding caravans with this verse.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    Just and Fair = Ordering the killing innocent children

    Right on man! :congrats:


    Well that was in the old testament. God entered into a new covenant with his creation with the birth of Jesus.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by FluffyCherry)
    Murdering definitely goes against the Quran!! You're not a Muslim after all, so you obv don't know much about Islam!

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/no_murder.htm
    1) Fallacy. Being a non-Muslim doesn't necessarily mean you don't know anything about Isam. TSR has consistently shown that in many cases non-Muslims know more about Islamic scripture than Muslims themselves.

    2) You misunderstood what I meant by that comment in the context of this thread and discussion. Aside from the fact that murdering is sometimes allowed in verses like 5:33 and others (whatever justification you may give is irrelevant as it does not refute the general claim that murder is sometimes permitted), what I was getting at is that murdering does not take a Muslim out of the fold of Islam. Many Muslims have claimed this yet have provided no scriptural evidence supporting their assertion.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    "And that ye slay not the life which Allah hath made sacred, save in the course of justice. This He hath command you, in order that ye may discern" - (6:151)

    "Whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind"- (5:32)

    "And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, is the Hearer, the Knower." - (5:32)
    See my post to FluffyCherry. As well as there being verses that do permit murder, none of the ones you have provided show that a Muslim who murders is no longer a Muslim.

    Your use of 5:32 is also quite disingenuous given that the very next one, 5:33, talks about the murderous punishments allowed against certain people.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Zinann)
    Well that was in the old testament. God entered into a new covenant with his creation with the birth of Jesus.
    Right, so at first God was evil but decided to have a new year's resolution and not order any more killings of children?
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    The Peaceful Imam of the Religion of peace openly sympathize with Terrorists.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/glasgow-ima...tician-1551580




    What a peaceful religion for mankind



    I wonder if muslims now would say," oh he doesn't know the Quran or he's not a real muslim"

    He's a God damn Imam, he's more of a muslim than everyone in your family put together.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    Right, so at first God was evil but decided to have a new year's resolution and not order any more killings of children?




    I won't say he was evil because there are numerous evidences of God being fair to the world in the old testament, one example of God commanding the murder of an entire race during a time of war isn't sufficient.

    He was just more tolerant and calmer in the new testament.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Tempest II)
    I'm not sure if all Muslims do need to do more to combat extremism in their communities, I'm sure some already do a decent job.

    I think what everyone needs to realise is that ISIS/Da'esh kill far more Muslims (regardless of whether they're Shia or Sunni) than they kill Christians, non-believing Westerners etc. Therefore I find it hard to see why anyone Muslim or not could possibly support their murderous actions.

    I very much doubt that the terrorists in Belgium and Paris held thought much about whether anyone else at their targets was a Muslim or not. I highly doubt it'd have changed their mind even if there was other Muslims there.

    Therefore it's in everyone's interest to see they jihadists stopped as by the time they've been so brainwashed into committing their atrocity then I doubt they care whether it's a Muslim or Christian they kill.
    The issue is that I don't think ISIS considers anyone who doesn't subscribe to their particular version of Islam as Muslims.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    Right, so at first God was evil but decided to have a new year's resolution and not order any more killings of children?
    Isn't this just whataboutery and derailing the thread?
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    See my post to FluffyCherry. As well as there being verses that do permit murder, none of the ones you have provided show that a Muslim who murders is no longer a Muslim.

    Your use of 5:32 is also quite disingenuous given that the very next one 5:33, talks about the murderous punishment allowed against certain people.
    What do you mean by murder exactly? Does it include capital punishment? Can we agree that killing non-Muslim 'innocents' is forbidden (that don't fit "certain" criteria)?

    By the way, as you know, ISIS kill Muslims too, in which the Qur'an explicitly describes the punishment in the afterlife for believers to kill each other. Also, what is your interpretation of 5:33.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Zinann)
    I won't say he was evil because there are numerous evidences of God being fair to the world in the old testament, one example of God commanding the murder of an entire race during a time of war isn't sufficient.

    He was just more tolerant and calmer in the new testament.
    Wait a sec... Your saying because God is fair at many other times, he's given one chance to relax, take a break and be unjust (kill children) for once.
    If he's "calmer" now, surely that would point out a flaw in the quality of God right?

    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Isn't this just whataboutery and derailing the thread?
    Maybe lol. But I'm responding to this guy's statement on Christianity being the best religion (or something) earlier on in the thread.

    P.S. I've got some hard chem revision to do, so my reply may be late.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    What do you mean by murder exactly? Does it include capital punishment? Can we agree that killing non-Muslim 'innocents' is forbidden (that don't fit "certain" criteria)?
    Would you mind providing a verse that explicitly says the murder of non-Muslims is forbidden? Even if there is one, it doesn't change the initial statement I made that no verse says that a Muslim who kills stops being a Muslim. This claim is absurd on many counts. I mean, millions of Muslims in history have fought in battle and killed people, so are they all no longer Muslims?

    By the way, as you know, ISIS kill Muslims too, in which the Qur'an explicitly describes the punishment in the afterlife for believers to kill each other. Also, what is your interpretation of 5:33.
    I know ISIS kills Muslims although it's unlikely that ISIS actually considers them Muslims in the first place if they don't follow the same extremist interpretation.

    5:33 says that those who wage war against Allah and Muhammad should be killed in horrific ways. Ibn Kathir's tafsir on this verse states that "wage war" means "oppose" and "contradict" which includes disbelief.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    God is flawless. His judgement is also flawless. He also killed children during the time of noah, which is also mentioned in the quran so i don't get what you're clinging on to.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Zinann)
    Liberal dribble.

    A muslim killing another muslim doesn't change the fact that the killer is a muslim.

    Read the Hadiths. Muhammed himself wanted to kill muslims like Abdullah Ibn sarh, he wanted ti burn houses of muslims to the ground when they didn't attend a mosque, all this garbage about ISIS not being muslims because they kill peaceful muslims is meant for the ignorant liberal double talking dullards who know nothing about their books, not the well informed like myself.
    In this situation I'm happy to take being "Liberal" as a complement!

    Dude, that was thousands of years ago. I wouldn't say any civilisation was particularly keen on Human Rights or being peaceful at that point.
    Do I think that the Middle East is behind the West in terms of rights for people regardless of their religion, gender, sexuality etc because of Islam? Yes.
    Do I believe all Muslims want to kill non-believers and stone adulterous women and gay men to death? No.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    The issue is that I don't think ISIS considers anyone who doesn't subscribe to their particular version of Islam as Muslims.
    I agree with you there and with most things you post.
    But the followers of Da'esh/ISIS are tiny compared to the several billion Muslims in the world. ISIS and other terrorist organisations like it need to be rooted out and destroyed preferably by other Muslims but with Western help where necessary.
    I'm not a fan of religion in general and I don't really think any religion is particularly compatible with 21st Century Britain but as long as people from all cultures/religious backgrounds adhere roughly to British values (even if they don't necessarily agree with all of them) then I won't complain.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Zinann)
    God is flawless. His judgement is also flawless. He also killed children during the time of noah, which is also mentioned in the quran so i don't get what you're clinging on to.
    If God is flawless, then why does he suddenly decide to become a much kinder being after the new testament is revealed? Why didn't he stay as his self before?
    So far, I can gather the main responses you're using are: God works in mysterious ways and is also just. So if the Qur'an also allows killing innocent individuals (which I believe it doesn't but let's say it does), just like God commanded in the old testament, then can I not use the same arguments you are using but in the justification of the killings of ISIS?

    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Would you mind providing a verse that explicitly says the murder of non-Muslims is forbidden? Even if there is one, it doesn't change the initial statement I made that no verse says that a Muslim who kills stops being a Muslim. This claim is absurd on many counts. I mean, millions of Muslims in history have fought in battle and killed people, so are they all no longer Muslims?



    I know ISIS kills Muslims although it's unlikely that ISIS actually considers them Muslims in the first place if they don't follow the same extremist interpretation.

    5:33 says that those who wage war against Allah and Muhammad should be killed in horrific ways. Ibn Kathir's tafsir on this verse states that "wage war" means "oppose" and "contradict" which includes disbelief.
    "And that ye slay not the life which Allah hath made sacred, save in the course of justice. This He hath command you, in order that ye may discern" - (6:151)

    "Whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind"- (5:32)

    "And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, is the Hearer, the Knower." - (5:32)

    These verses pretty much say don't kill innocent people, Muslim or Non-Muslim. As well as this there are many hadith on treating disbelievers with kindness and respect. I never said the Qur'an dictates whether killing non-Muslims says a Muslim is no longer Muslim. I was actually referring to the point where you said the Quran never forbids killing.

    But let's just say ISIS don't consider any of those Muslims they kill as Muslims (I think they more view the act as creating Muslim martyrs but let's go with the latter). I, on the other hand, would view the people killed as Muslims. Hence, I will be able to say they aren't true Muslims, since the explanation is from my own view. If the Qur'an gives explicit detail on the punishment of killing a believer, it pretty much means they have disobeyed God to a high extent. Even the verses above that forbid killing of the non-muslims show that ISIS are disobeying God. One who does disobeys God is not a true Muslim, since Islam essentially does mean "submission" (to God).5:33 Here “the land” refers to that country or territory in which the maintenance of law and order is the responsibility of the Muslim State and “to wage war against Allah and His Messenger” is to wage war (or "oppose/contradict") against the righteous system of government established by the Islamic State. This is also implemented today in Western society as "treason" against the state(, such as in USA and the UK).
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    If God is flawless, then why does he suddenly decide to become a much kinder being after the new testament is revealed? Why didn't he stay as his self before?
    So far, I can gather the main responses you're using are: God works in mysterious ways and is also just. So if the Qur'an also allows killing innocent individuals (which I believe it doesn't but let's say it does), just like God commanded in the old testament, then can I not use the same arguments you are using but in the justification of the killings of ISIS?



    "And that ye slay not the life which Allah hath made sacred, save in the course of justice. This He hath command you, in order that ye may discern" - (6:151)

    "Whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind"- (5:32)

    "And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, is the Hearer, the Knower." - (5:32)

    These verses pretty much say don't kill innocent people, Muslim or Non-Muslim. As well as this there are many hadith on treating disbelievers with kindness and respect. I never said the Qur'an dictates whether killing non-Muslims says a Muslim is no longer Muslim. I was actually referring to the point where you said the Quran never forbids killing.

    But let's just say ISIS don't consider any of those Muslims they kill as Muslims (I think they more view the act as creating Muslim martyrs but let's go with the latter). I, on the other hand, would view the people killed as Muslims. Hence, I will be able to say they aren't true Muslims, since the explanation is from my own view. If the Qur'an gives explicit detail on the punishment of killing a believer, it pretty much means they have disobeyed God to a high extent. Even the verses above that forbid killing of the non-muslims show that ISIS are disobeying God. One who does disobeys God is not a true Muslim, since Islam essentially does mean "submission" (to God).5:33 Here “the land” refers to that country or territory in which the maintenance of law and order is the responsibility of the Muslim State and “to wage war against Allah and His Messenger” is to wage war (or "oppose/contradict" against the righteous system of government established by the Islamic State. This is also implemented today in Western society as "treason" against the state(, such as in USA and the UK).
    Again though, those verses don't explicitly say it's forbidden and they certainly say nothing about someone's status as a Muslim if they do those things.

    I read you Ibn Kathir's tafsir that said this included disbelief, not just physically waging war. And this solves nothing, you are just justifying murder in particular circumstances which debunks the assertion that a Muslim murderer is no longer a Muslim.

    As far as I know treason in the UK is not punishable by death although it would add nothing to your argument if it were as this is just whataboutery.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Again though, those verses don't explicitly say it's forbidden and they certainly say nothing about someone's status as a Muslim if they do those things.

    I read you Ibn Kathir's tafsir that said this included disbelief, not just physically waging war. And this solves nothing, you are just justifying murder in particular circumstances which debunks the assertion that a Muslim murderer is no longer a Muslim.

    As far as I know treason in the UK is not punishable by death although it would add nothing to your argument if it were as this is just whataboutery.
    How do they not say it's forbidden? If God tells me not to kill someone, then I can't do it right?

    You're right they don't say whether that person has left Islam or not but like I was saying, going against the commands of God show whether you are a good Muslim or not. Whether you are "submissive" to God or not.

    5:33 -- It doesn't say kill the people who disbelieve. If the disbeliever causes mischief, then he should be killed: "`Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways. Mischief in the land refers to various types of evil." - This is from Ibn Kathir. Also, from what I can see the verse says, "those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land"; hence, the use of "and" instead of "or" tells us the people who disbelieve need to tick certain boxes (commit crime) in order to be punished. Otherwise, there would be no non-Muslims coming to visit Makkah at the time it was taken over by Islam, Muslims and Non-Muslims would not be living side by side under the ruling of the Ottomon Empire etc.

    When I mentioned the UK, I meant there is a punishment for treason (regardless of whether it is by death or not). I was applying the same logic to this ayah. Going against the Islamic state is a form of treason.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by yasmeenak)
    Hi, I can understand how frustrated you are. I'm a Muslim myself, and it angers me a lot. Can I just clarify though - ISS terrorists are not Muslim, they may claim to be - but they certainly do not reflect the true beliefs and ethics of Islam. We do not accept them.

    If I did suspect a friend/family member, number one, I'd advise them. Tell other family members/well known community leaders - have a chat with them, explain to them why they're wrong etc.

    But, sadly, most people are radicalised and brainwashed online - or in secret gatherings with their so-called 'leader' and it tends to be very difficult to weed them out! Like I'll give you an example, recently, in our town a whole family of what seemed to be normal muslims left on holiday to their homeland and when they were missing for a long period of time - investigations were opened and it was discovered they ran to ISS!! It took the whole of the community with a massive shock because it was absolutely unsuspected. Over 8 family members, including babies and a terminally ill elder person!

    Yes, the Muslim community is recognising this, and we are doing a LOT to stop individuals getting radicalised and becoming terrorists. We are doing our very best, but there is only so little we can do.
    Are you from Luton? I am a Muslim too and it is frustrating how Islam is associated with these things, when the truth is this is not Islam at all and what they are doing is pure and complete wrong and evil.
 
 
 
Poll
How are you feeling in the run-up to Results Day 2018?
Useful resources

Groups associated with this forum:

View associated groups

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.