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    After briefly bring won over by FPTP I've come back in favour of PR.


    First of all I don't think there's anything undemocratic about FPTP. The reason why I support PR is so that we can have greater clarity as to what kind of party we are voting for. Whilst the labour and conservative parties are indeed big tent coalitions, I don't see this as a good thing and allows for particular group to dominate for instance, the blairites,

    I expect there to be six parties in a post PR Britain

    Celtic Nationalist parties
    Socialist party
    Democrat party (SDP)
    Liberal Party
    Libertarian Party
    Christian Nation Party
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    Rainbows... Are pretty... Rainbows.... are beautiful

    Now try to paint your bedroom wall in the colours of a rainbow.
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    The post blairites can form their own Democrat style party and the lefties and moderates can form an actual left wing party. Problem solved. Conservatives can have a centrist faction and the rioght fo the party can form a death nazi kill the poor/bomb the EU party.

    FPTP also really ****s over the left as the left wing is always so sectarian. Right wingers are much better at uniting under one banner :-/
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    After briefly bring won over by FPTP I've come back in favour of PR.


    First of all I don't think there's anything undemocratic about FPTP. The reason why I support PR is so that we can have greater clarity as to what kind of party we are voting for. Whilst the labour and conservative parties are indeed big tent coalitions, I don't see this as a good thing and allows o e particular group to dominate for instance,
    Why don't you think it's undemocratic? A system that can give all of the power to a party chosen by less than a quarter of those registered to vote surely can't be regarded as being particularly democratic?
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    Why don't you think it's undemocratic? A system that can give all of the power to a party chosen by less than a quarter of those registered to vote surely can't be regarded as being particularly democratic?
    Well, first of all i think 'pure' democracy is essentially an ideal and that all variants of democracy or voting method is in someway undemocratic including PR.

    Secondly some of these undemocratic elements have a bad rep. We wouldn't want an elected judiciary for instance.

    Whilst it is not a good thing that only around thirty percent voted Tory, I dontvthonknthst is enough to warrant accusations of being undemocratic particularly when there are far more dire cases at hand.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    T

    Right wingers are much better at uniting under one banner :-/
    Usually, but this EU ref might just End that.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Well, first of all i think 'pure' democracy is essentially an ideal and that all variants of democracy or voting method is in someway undemocratic including PR.

    Secondly some of these undemocratic elements have a bad rep. We wouldn't want an elected judiciary for instance.

    Whilst it is not a good thing that only around thirty percent voted Tory, I dontvthonknthst is enough to warrant accusations of being undemocratic particularly when there are far more dire cases at hand.
    Of course pure democracy is an ideal, but the current situation where the ruling party represents less than a quarter of the electorate is appalling far removed from that ideal so that's not really an excuse. Neither is the existence of more undemocratic systems an excuse... just because some other countries are even less democratic than us doesn't make our system perfect, nor does it relinquish our responsibility to improve our system.

    I don't really get the relevance of your point about the judiciary since we're not discussing the judiciary, we're discussing the government.
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    I completely disagree with PR for the lower house, we would never have a majority government again.

    I much prefer the Australian system; alternative preferential vote for the lower house mostly provides strong governments (where each MP is nonetheless the "most preferred" candidate.. you don't have a situation where a right-wing candidate gets 40% and wins despite two centre-left candidates getting 60% overall and thus being more preferred) and the ruling party tends to get a decent majority

    In the upper house / senate, you have proportional representation where the government almost never has a majority so you do get that minor party representation and people don't feel like they are totally locked out of the political system like, say, UKIP is in the UK. On great issues that are agreed between the parties, like Trident is here, it will pass because both government and opposition will vote for it. On other issues, the government generally needs to make some compromise either with the crossbenchers or opposition so you don't get untrammeled, ideologically driven government decisions

    I do quite like the House of Lords, but I think having a government only elected by 24% of the electorate while parties like UKIP get millions of votes and almost no representation is hugely detracting from the legitimacy of the political system. I don't think I can justify failing to support a more legitimate system simply because I appreciate the aesthetics of the Lords and think the quality of debate is somewhat higher

    Also, in the Australian system as I said minor parties do have something to play for. Getting senators does yield real power, so extremists don't congregate in the two major parties just because they are the only game in town. They form their own parties, so we wouldn't have to deal with Corbynista infecting Labour
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    Of course pure democracy is an ideal, but the current situation where the ruling party represents less than a quarter of the electorate is appalling far removed from that ideal so that's not really an excuse. Neither is the existence of more undemocratic systems an excuse... just because some other countries are even less democratic than us doesn't make our system perfect, nor does it relinquish our responsibility to improve our system.

    I don't really get the relevance of your point about the judiciary since we're not discussing the judiciary, we're discussing the government.
    Meh, you're right. I just don't feel that strongly about it. I think we can be a democracy under FPTP just a better one under PR.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    After briefly bring won over by FPTP I've come back in favour of PR.


    First of all I don't think there's anything undemocratic about FPTP. The reason why I support PR is so that we can have greater clarity as to what kind of party we are voting for. Whilst the labour and conservative parties are indeed big tent coalitions, I don't see this as a good thing and allows for particular group to dominate for instance, the blairites,

    I expect there to be six parties in a post PR Britain

    Celtic Nationalist parties
    Socialist party
    Democrat party (SDP)
    Liberal Party
    Libertarian Party
    Christian Nation Party
    Alternate vote system is the way forward- PR will lead to weak governments and elections every 12-18 months
 
 
 
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