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    (Original post by vienna95)
    can you edit the quotes please.
    I see now why thats annoying
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    for instance, you dont believe the EU is "heading in the direction of a united states of Europe type affair.", but then assert that the same EU is required to counter US power. can you explain that?

    I'm not saying it's not heading in that direction, I'm saying it's not that at present, and if it becomes that way in the future, then we can re-evaluate our position.

    secondly, within a matter of decades the US will have a GDP over twice that of the EU, average popn age of just over 30 compared to 45 in the EU and a pension level of approximately 40% , compared to the 60% plus of the EU. bearing in mind the US taxpayer is paying for EU defence and would surely withdraw it, forcing EU defence spending up, im interested to see how the EU could actually continue to wield any political or economic power with the consequences of time..

    Britain has an ageing population anyway, with a high and growing dependency ratio. Other countries in the EU are actually helping to reduce the average of figures you just stated.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    can you edit the quotes please.
    yes, but in this case my comment applied to the entire post.
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    (Original post by stu673)
    I don't know how high morality rates with you guys, but would I be the only person feeling extremely guilty for withdrawing our billion pound investment in trying to brgin the rest of the EU up to speed in terms of healthcare/education/employment? These people have just as much a right to these things as we do, we are in no way better human beings for denying them these rights and concentrating on our already greedy/obese nation.
    As UK citizens, a number of people must accept that they are tax payers. Let's say the UK is a club much like the EU which it's citizens are members of. They accept the costs and benefits. One of these costs for the richer members is paying higher rates of income tax for redistributive reasons. If you don't like it, you go into tax exile in Moncao or something.

    The UK itself is also part of a club, the EU, and like it's citizens it excepts the costs and benefits, and like it's citizens one of the costs it pays is effectively a high rate of tax for redistributive measures. This is passed down onto it's own citizens. They pay additional income tax not only to go to poorer citizens of the UK but also to go to poorer regions in the EU, on the UK's behalf. A lot of people aren't even aware that they are paying it. I'd call that immoral.

    But linking back to the British tax payer comparison, most people in Britain are not willing European citizens, therefore why should additional tax for poorer nations be accepted in the way that tax for poorer citizens is? It shouldn't, it's a situation that's been forced upon the British people by the UK's entry to the EU and the fact that it's remained in there. Is this moral? No it's not.

    So if you're going to look at a morallity issue you have to look at the impact on both parties. Referendum would be the logical answer but to trust the general public on this sort of thing would be ridiculous. IQ tests posted to everyone's door with a voting slip and an unbiased information pack is the way ahead.
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    (Original post by Zapsta)
    ...unbiased information pack...
    That'll be the day.
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    to be honest i think all points have been argued to death. nothing much more to say.
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    (Original post by endorf)
    to be honest i think all points have been argued to death. nothing much more to say.
    Seconded.
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    (Original post by Ellie4)
    That'll be the day.
    Two biased information packs presenting equal amounts of information from both a pro-European and anti-European view then :rolleyes:. Anyway, I think we'll be getting unbiased information packs through our doors way before we're getting IQ tests.
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    (Original post by Ellie4)
    for instance, you dont believe the EU is "heading in the direction of a united states of Europe type affair.", but then assert that the same EU is required to counter US power. can you explain that?

    I'm not saying it's not heading in that direction, I'm saying it's not that at present, and if it becomes that way in the future, then we can re-evaluate our position.
    so signing the EU constitution does what, for you? im very confused as to your actual viewpoint, which seems to be, well lets just go along with it until we cant stand it anymore. if we have no intention of becoming a part of a federal state of europe, why would we make sacrifices now?

    secondly, within a matter of decades the US will have a GDP over twice that of the EU, average popn age of just over 30 compared to 45 in the EU and a pension level of approximately 40% , compared to the 60% plus of the EU. bearing in mind the US taxpayer is paying for EU defence and would surely withdraw it, forcing EU defence spending up, im interested to see how the EU could actually continue to wield any political or economic power with the consequences of time..

    Britain has an ageing population anyway, with a high and growing dependency ratio. Other countries in the EU are actually helping to reduce the average of figures you just stated.
    precisely, the idea of an EU built on the current and predicted demographics, with little or no change to social spending, being economically and politically comparable to the US, is laughable.

    other countries? other countries such as France and Germany are adding to the misery.
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    This debate is just going round in circles now. You don't agree with me, fine, that doesn't bother me in the slightest. My point is that we should not leave the EU now on the premise that we will not agree with things that may happen in the future. I personally don't think we're making many sacrifices to be in the EU at the moment, I think we're receiving more benefits. France and Germany? Right so that's two countries. Other countries have different demographics, without ageing populations. Alone, Britain has an ageing population anyway, or will do very soon, withdrawing from the EU won't change that.
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    I guess the only way we could catch up with USA's GDP is that they have a nuclear war with someone and we don't get involved, which isn't likely.
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    (Original post by Ellie4)
    i) Britain will transplant no policy making decisions to the EU were a constitution to be ratified?
    I'm not talking solely about the constitution, but Britain will certainly have no input into EU policies if we're not in it!
    why would we want input into something that we dont belong to?


    There may well one day be a federal state, but that doesn't mean Britain has to be part of it. We still have our own currency, our monetary policy, our defence force, our PM, our judicial system etc etc. Europe isn't saying that we can't. If further down the line, these things become obligatory, then by all means the UK can use the part of the constitution that says we can withdraw from the EU at any time. But those things haven't happened yet, so why withdraw now?
    because we are handing over substantial power and monetary policy to the EU. if we dont intend to ever become part of a federal Europe, why make such vast half-hearted sacrifices now?

    iii) it would not be feasible to negotiate trade agreements on a per country basis were Britain to leave the EU?
    Yes it would, but we would not have the same trade agreement that we currently have, and with more than half of the UK's trade occuring within the EU, this would have a serious effect on our trade.
    er, free trade agreements with EU countries..

    iv) signing the draft EU constitution would benefit Britain economically?
    No, but I think not signing the constitution is going to place the UK in a very weak position.
    in regards to what?
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    why would we want input into something that we dont belong to?




    because we are handing over substantial power and monetary policy to the EU. if we dont intend to ever become part of a federal Europe, why make such vast half-hearted sacrifices now?


    er, free trade agreements with EU countries..



    in regards to what?
    please let it drop !! i agree with what you are saying but the arguments are not new anymore. not everyone is going to agree with you, accept that!
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    :rolleyes: I've said all I'm going to say on this, I'm not going to sit here and constantly repeat myself. I don't think we're making sacrifices to be in the EU, as I've said, I don't think withdrawing at this present moment is a good idea, as I've said and free trade agreements are all very well but it remains to be seen at the present time that leaving the EU wouldn't have a detrimental effect on the UK's trade, again, as I've already said. Debate this with someone else if you're not getting the answers you want from me.
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    (Original post by endorf)
    please let it drop !! i agree with what you are saying but the arguments are not new anymore. not everyone is going to agree with you, accept that!
    Actually I would like to see more of Vienna's argument/analysis.
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    (Original post by fishpaste)
    Actually I would like to see more of Vienna's argument/analysis.
    Let vienna say her piece then, I'm just saying that ripping apart my arguments isn't very constructive, because it's all been said before.
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    (Original post by fishpaste)
    Actually I would like to see more of Vienna's argument/analysis.
    i would like to see her argument, the parts that have not already been said.
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    (Original post by Ellie4)
    My point is that we should not leave the EU now on the premise that we will not agree with things that may happen in the future.
    we should leave it because we would be making sacrifices for the good of something that we have no intention of being part of.

    I personally don't think we're making many sacrifices
    are you aware of the contributions we make to the EU? are you aware of the vast number of areas in which all policy will now be dictated from Brussels?

    to be in the EU at the moment, I think we're receiving more benefits.
    can you provide me with some? because you only stated those that would be acquired as part of a federal europe that you have no intention of being part of, and incidentally are fundamentally impossible at the current time.

    France and Germany? Right so that's two countries. Other countries have different demographics, without ageing populations.
    can you tell me which? the figures were for the EU as a whole, thats a cumulative statistic. the EU will have 60% of its population in retirement by 2050. you were asserting that this same EU will be a successful foil to US power. clearly ludicrous.

    Alone, Britain has an ageing population anyway, or will do very soon, withdrawing from the EU won't change that.
    no, but at least we would have the ability to adapt economically to the demands of our demographic.
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    (Original post by endorf)
    please let it drop !! i agree with what you are saying but the arguments are not new anymore. not everyone is going to agree with you, accept that!
    im sorry, who are you?
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    But Vienna had already started explaining how Britain is making substantial sacrifices, and all that is being said in response is "I can't see any real sacrifices being made." It's fresh stuff.
 
 
 
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