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Do Muslims have a responsibility to address radicalism? watch

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    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    FYIl Majid Nawaz and Quilliam don't do anything meaningful towards stopping extremism, They are just against religious observance in general and are trying to stop people practicing mainstream Islam. They are rejected by 95% of muslims because they are trying to reform the religion. There are no credible statistics to show that the work they do is actually stopping extremism.
    Happen to have evidence to prove this?
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    Course they do, it's their book that all this madness is coming from? But they, the government and the government led mainstream media in Britain, Europe and the US, only want to raise the profile of 'fears' of the horrible right-wing's possible reaction, fears of 'Islamophobia', or even blame Western Imperialism, blame the Jews, blame the Rothschilds, etc, etc, etc.

    The last thing any of these groups are doing is the correct and reasonable thing. That is to confront and dismantle the cause and everyone knows what that is except for the brainwashed. Everyone is so frightened of speaking the simple unadorned or unperverted truth that they can't even remember what it is! And that's just the way the powers that be and the Islamist nutters want it. By the way, it's no good relying on the Imams because they're among the few that know the full 'warts and all' import of Quranic scripture, and it ain't all a rosy picture of piece and love that's taught in RE, that's for sure.

    Of course Muslims should do more but they don't because it's Mission Islam first and foremost. It's not about free will or a personal matter of conscience. It's obedience to the will of Allah.
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    As a Muslim I agree we do need to make more effort in the community but I feel we are spying on our own and being in my position it's difficult to gain trust if trust is broken. I strongly believe we should be looking at education and prevention and understanding different cultures and religions.

    Most Muslims (including myself) should and will not apologise for other people's actions as we have no connection with the people who commit terrorist activity.

    The term Muslim is often exploited and misused by the media and some people. I am a Muslim and have friends from all backgrounds. Happy days ☺️☺️☺️☺️
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    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    Well said my man. At the same time, all Irish people ought to get together and take down the IRA.
    Not really the same though, because Irish people aren't an ideological group.

    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    All priests should get together and stop the paedo priests.
    It would be fantastic if they did and they absolutely could work together more to do so.

    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    I could go on forever, This idea "muslims should stop extremism" isn't plausible. Terrorists are a minority in our communities and they look exactly like the next Muslim. They are not open with their plans because they know that if they WERE open about their ideas, they would get reported/beaten up at the mosque.
    I'm not suggesting that Muslims try and scout out who are the budding terrorists in their community. I'm suggesting that it would be beneficial if all Muslims spoke out against extremism, so that Muslims were taught that extremism is not acceptable in Islam from a young age. I know some do already, but I also realise that a great many don't.

    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    Stop trying to fuel a hatred towards muslims.
    I'm not. A minority of Muslims are already doing that.
    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    FYIl Majid Nawaz and Quilliam don't do anything meaningful towards stopping extremism, They are just against religious observance in general and are trying to stop people practicing mainstream Islam. They are rejected by 95% of muslims because they are trying to reform the religion. There are no credible statistics to show that the work they do is actually stopping extremism.
    What about when Maajid spoke to a radical that wanted to bomb London? The radical wanted to kill civilians as payback for the Iraq war. Maajid showed him photos, videos, and newspaper articles showing just how many protested against it. It changed the radical's mind. I would say that kind of work is extraordinarily helpful. Additionally, Islam clearly does need reform. He is doing great work, and hopefully beginning a new trend to move away from fundamentalism. Many will hate him at first, but that may change over time. It does show just how bad things are though, when Maajid seems to get more hate from the Muslim community than many extremists.

    (Original post by Emperor Trajan)
    So would you seek from Muslims, the condemnation and opposition to the parts of Islamic scripture, that gives rise to and justify, what many may consider to be reprehensible beliefs and actions? i.e. enslaving men, women and children, sex slavery, human trafficking, cruel and unusual punishments, FGM, contempt for disbelievers, homophobia, persecution of vocal apostates/critics of Islam, gender/religious discrimination and so on... (Bearing in mind, how dear many Muslims hold their scripture)


    Because I'm assuming there will likely be some Muslims who would be very reluctant to condemn and oppose the above and would rather instead provide apologetics for the above. Should this also be addressed?
    Yes it absolutely should.
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    (Original post by Salon)
    As a Muslim I agree we do need to make more effort in the community but I feel we are spying on our own and being in my position it's difficult to gain trust if trust is broken. I strongly believe we should be looking at education and prevention and understanding different cultures and religions.
    Exactly. What would be very helpful would be if more in the Muslim community spoke out against extremism and fundamentalism. I know some do already, but if almost every Muslim did this, I really doubt you would have many extremists coming out of the Muslim community. Also, as you say, if there was more effort to integrate with other ethnic communities, and to learn and respect other religions, that would also be very helpful.

    (Original post by Salon)
    Most Muslims (including myself) should and will not apologise for other people's actions as we have no connection with the people who commit terrorist activity.
    Of course you don't.

    (Original post by Salon)
    The term Muslim is often exploited and misused by the media and some people. I am a Muslim and have friends from all backgrounds. Happy days ☺️☺️☺️☺️
    Great! That is a fantastic thing.
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    Islamaphobia drives people underground because some Muslim communities are scared and worried of being victims just for being Muslim. We all need to do more to support each other like the old days regardless of where you come from.

    The likes of the daily mail, the mirror and similar papers are dilibertly targeting all Muslims and often is a propaganda agenda to drive hatered amongst communities. I am surprised the press commission allow these papers to print things like this. 'Muslim raped women' Muslim groom girls' Pakistani men abused girls' lol. You never read 'Christian Abuse girls'. Catholics rape women'. No perpretrator should be painted with the same brush!
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    (Original post by Emperor Trajan)
    So would you seek from Muslims, the condemnation and opposition to the parts of Islamic scripture, that gives rise to and justify, what many may consider to be reprehensible beliefs and actions? i.e. enslaving men, women and children, sex slavery, human trafficking, cruel and unusual punishments, FGM, contempt for disbelievers, homophobia, persecution of vocal apostates/critics of Islam, gender/religious discrimination and so on... (Bearing in mind, how dear many Muslims hold their scripture)

    Because I'm assuming there will likely be some Muslims who would be very reluctant to condemn and oppose the above and would rather instead provide apologetics for the above. Should this also be addressed?
    Some very good points here in my opinion.
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    Of course they do, they can't bury their heads in the sand and say "It's got nothing to do with us".
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    (Original post by M14B)
    Some very good points here in my opinion.
    You just painted all Muslims the same. Look at the history of Christians for example they use to do the same. Used religion and politics to cause hatred. Everybody is an individual and your aurgument is invalid.
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    Everybody does, not just Muslims!
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    (Original post by Legendary Quest)
    However, they shouldn't feel as though it's their responsibility to deal with people who, quite frankly, are pretty sick (in the sense that they believe in some pretty horrible things).
    Then who should? Those beliefs you dislike so much are merely a literal interpretation of the Koran and hadiths. Given that the Koran itself is supposedly the word of Allah and forbids anyone from interpreting, or adding or taking away a single word of it, it doesn't seem unreasonable to believe that it was meant to be taken literally, does it?

    Who then can persuade Moslems that a literal interpretation is wrong? Certainly not non-Moslems, obviously. Who does that leave?

    A good first step would be to kick out all the Salafi and Deobandi-trained preachers from the mosques.
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    (Original post by Salon)
    You just painted all Muslims the same. Look at the history of Christians for example they use to do the same. Used religion and politics to cause hatred. Everybody is an individual and your aurgument is invalid.
    This is not a comparative debate about the merits of Christianity vs. Islam. Your point is irrelevant.
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    (Original post by Aceadria)
    This is not a comparative debate about the merits of Christianity vs. Islam. Your point is irrelevant.
    It was, in fact, a clear example of whataboutery.
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    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    Terrorists are a minority in our communities and they look exactly like the next Muslim. They are not open with their plans because they know that if they WERE open about their ideas, they would get reported/beaten up at the mosque.
    .
    many extremist preached openly at the mosque - with no consequence. extremeism only exists in islamic community because its tolerated.

    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    FYIl Majid Nawaz and Quilliam don't do anything meaningful towards stopping extremism, They are just against religious observance in general and are trying to stop people practicing mainstream Islam. They are rejected by 95% of muslims because they are trying to reform the religion. .
    that seemingly is the only way to tackle islamist radicalisation. unfortunately as you say 95%+ of islamic community are against this - you seem to think it would be better to live with radicalisation than tackle it
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    (Original post by Aceadria)
    This is not a comparative debate about the merits of Christianity vs. Islam. Your point is irrelevant.
    Not really. All religions go around killing people for the name of religion. Christainlity is no different! My point is valid. You chose to be basis.
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    (Original post by Salon)
    Not really. All religions go around killing people for the name of religion.
    Some far, far less than others. Islam, far, far more than every other. That is patently the problem, stop trying to weasel out of it and deflect attention away from a serious issue.
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    (Original post by Salon)
    Islamaphobia drives people underground because some Muslim communities are scared and worried of being victims just for being Muslim. We all need to do more to support each other like the old days regardless of where you come from.
    I don't think Islamophobia is responsible for IS.

    (Original post by Salon)
    The likes of the daily mail, the mirror and similar papers are deliberately targeting all Muslims and often is a propaganda agenda to drive hatred amongst communities. I am surprised the press commission allow these papers to print things like this. 'Muslim raped women' Muslim groom girls' Pakistani men abused girls' lol. You never read 'Christian Abuse girls'. Catholics rape women'. No perpetrator should be painted with the same brush!
    You're going to have to find me some mainstream newspaper headlines that specify that a sexual criminal or a group of sexual criminals are Muslim or Pakistani, because I've never seen anything of the sort. I feel like a lot of the time Muslims invent how much they are demonized, as religious groups often do. Regardless, in terms of the Rotherham scandal, the men who raped those girls were Pakistani Muslims, and they committed those crimes largely because of their cultural background. Many of their excuses were along the lines of "they were asking for it" because the girls wore tight jeans or skirts.
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    Muslims should not apologise for the actions of those murderers, but should rather show that they don't share the same mentality. If a family happens to have a genetic disorder running in it, a person from the family must show to a woman that he doesn't have the disorder before impregnating her (pardon my poor biology knowledge). Similarly, Muslims have a disease growing within their religious group, and if Muslims wish to continue to live in peace with everyone else, they should demonstrate that they don't share those beliefs with those murderers. Muslims should be first to demonstrate and prove that Islam does not promote murder of disbelievers, and if it does they should abandon their religion.

    That being said, religions are all about interpretation. For example:
    Here's a bible quote about killing non-believers.
    Spoiler:
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    If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

    Yet Christians don't nowadays go about killing others. They also don't have the requirement of demonstrating their innocence. That clearly demonstrates that the actions of a religious man are motivated by their interpretations of the books. And so, one should only be responsible for his interpretation and for his actions only not how others interpret the book. However, it would be better for moderate Muslims if they did demonstrate their peaceful interpretation. It would make them more accepted in society and would overcome some of the biases against them. It's sad that they have to, but that's the situation we have nevertheless.
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    (Original post by Salon)
    Not really. All religions go around killing people for the name of religion. Christainlity is no different! My point is valid. You chose to be basis.

    Perhaps, but the issue raised by both the OP and Emperor Trajan related specifically to Islam and not religion as a whole.

    (Original post by KingBradly)
    I personally would say no. But regardless it would certainly be extraordinarily helpful if they all came together to do so. Extremism grows up within their own religious community, and no one is in a better position to nip it in the bud than fellow Muslims, and especially Islamic authorities such as Imams. Although they have no responsibility as individuals to address this problem, it most certainly does relate to them in some respect, so it's annoying when Muslims scoff or scorn the idea that they should attempt to help address the problem, because it's plain to see that they have a greater opportunity than anyone to do something that might really help. So it's a shame to see that so many seem genuinely quite smug about squandering such an opportunity. Ok, you don't care. But why be proud of that?

    Props to Qualliam and Maajid Nawaz, the world needs more like you.
    (Original post by Emperor Trajan)
    So would you seek from Muslims, the condemnation and opposition to the parts of Islamic scripture, that gives rise to and justify, what many may consider to be reprehensible beliefs and actions? i.e. enslaving men, women and children, sex slavery, human trafficking, cruel and unusual punishments, FGM, contempt for disbelievers, homophobia, persecution of vocal apostates/critics of Islam, gender/religious discrimination and so on... (Bearing in mind, how dear many Muslims hold their scripture)

    Because I'm assuming there will likely be some Muslims who would be very reluctant to condemn and oppose the above and would rather instead provide apologetics for the above. Should this also be addressed?
    Your point is irrelevant in that you're using the example of a morally reprehensible act to justify another.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Yes it absolutely should.
    Then you'll face quite a struggle don't you think?

    Cultural Muslims (possibly the majority, or atleast here in Britain) and progressive Muslims will perhaps provide some distance from, what's considered to be reprehensible beliefs, via in denial or silence, when these beliefs are brought up. Possibly due to fear of condemnation, ostracization of themselves and accusations of "Apostate", from fellow Muslims, usually more religious/conservative Muslims. (They don't want to be dislike like Maajid)

    Likely the more religious/conservative Muslims will be very reluctant to condemn and oppose the parts of Islamic scripture, viewed by many non-muslims (and some Muslims) to be reprehensible and responsible for the existence of groups like ISIS, Boko haram, Al Shabab etc and their beliefs and actions.

    You only need to go to the ISOC and bring the topic of vocal apostasy, homosexuality, enslavement of men, women and children, sex slavery, cruel and unusual punishments etc, to either face denial or apologetics ready at hand.

    There's a saying, "Man can't make haram what Allah has made halal". To condemn and oppose Islamic scripture (or parts of it) is to condemn and oppose Muhammad, the Sahaba and other venerated Muslims, who held dear and permitted the parts islamic scripture, seen with distaste by non-muslims.

    So you'll face a tough ride. You'll instead get from many Muslims, condemnations and opposition to groups like ISIS and their actions (persecuting, in ISIS's eyes, vocal Apostates/critics), but you won't likely get condemnation of Islamic scripture, that give rise to such beliefs and existence of groups like ISIS.
 
 
 
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