Combining subjects

OP

Thanks.

Now that I read what I've just said, I think you're right. I should go for what interests me most instead of what has the best future.

And about that last thing that you said, that maybe I should consider a university with a joint-degree (that's what it's called, right?). The weird thing is that I'm not quite sure what subject to study, but I am completely sure of the fact that I want to go to Cambridge. Whatever I want to study, it's there (I don't think I'd like the joint-degree thing anyway), and it's just an amazing university. I'm a sucker for old buildings and gowns, and I've got a thing for England (I'm Dutch), and Cambridge seems to me like England at its very best.

So what college are you in? I used to be quite sure (Either Clare, Peterhouse, Corpus or Caius), but now I'm totally desoriented. I still like Peterhouse, but it would be nice to not be the only phil-student there in my year, you know? I'd love to have someone you can chat with and not having to avoid phil because it will virtually bore them to death. Another question; when you read the original texts of philosophers, do the teachers mind if you obtain a more, lets say, modern copy? With a contemporary use of language? The fact that I'm Dutch would already make it more difficult for me to study in English, let alone the English of a few centuries ago. :P

Reply 4

OP

parkerpen

The other thing that is worth remembering is that within both subjects there will be overlap. I can't talk about Philosophy but with SPS in politics there are papers of political theory including ethics etc which would sate philosophical interests. Equally a lot of the social theory is influenced by Heidegger, Nietzsche and Wittgenstein. Its a more practical application of what they write in many cases. And some of the authors that I study such as Focault and Marx are also philosophers. I really enjoy the philosophical aspects of the course but wouldn't want to study philosophy itself.

I follow this subject on the local university, Social Philosophy. I really like the 'older' philosophers (eg Rousseau, Machiavelly, Mill etc), ie the ones that talk about man and society in general. But the newer philosophers like Habermas and Foucault, I find them so very difficult and less interesting. And if the latter ones are the ones in the curriculum, I'm not so very sure if I would like that aspect of SPS. But thanks anyway, I didn't think that Political Philosophy would be a mentionable part of SPS.

Reply 5

hey NickkO, I don't have much time to write a response right now, but I'm a philosopher and I applied for philosophy and politics everywhere else. After the first year there are political philosophy modules which look great and you can tailor your interests accordingly there.
As for the employability thing, philosophers actually have one of the highest employment rates after university, with most going into the City or into law. They have teh analytical skills that most people want you see! I was going to switch courses at the end of the first year (I already had permission, but mine is a special and unusual case due to my circumstances) but I realised that there was no way I could leave philosophy.

Either way, Jigglypuff is right, just study whatever you will enjoy the most, and feel free to ask either one of us any questions!

Reply 6

Jigglypuff

16

NickkO

Thanks.

Now that I read what I've just said, I think you're right. I should go for what interests me most instead of what has the best future.

And about that last thing that you said, that maybe I should consider a university with a joint-degree (that's what it's called, right?). The weird thing is that I'm not quite sure what subject to study, but I am completely sure of the fact that I want to go to Cambridge. Whatever I want to study, it's there (I don't think I'd like the joint-degree thing anyway), and it's just an amazing university. I'm a sucker for old buildings and gowns, and I've got a thing for England (I'm Dutch), and Cambridge seems to me like England at its very best.

So what college are you in? I used to be quite sure (Either Clare, Peterhouse, Corpus or Caius), but now I'm totally desoriented. I still like Peterhouse, but it would be nice to not be the only phil-student there in my year, you know? I'd love to have someone you can chat with and not having to avoid phil because it will virtually bore them to death. Another question; when you read the original texts of philosophers, do the teachers mind if you obtain a more, lets say, modern copy? With a contemporary use of language? The fact that I'm Dutch would already make it more difficult for me to study in English, let alone the English of a few centuries ago. :P

I'm at King's, which I'd definitely recommend, but all the ones you've mentioned are nice enough. I can imagine you'd be pretty unsure seeing as you live abroad, I didn't visit any before I applied and I live in UK. Rest assured, you'll end up loving wherever you go. I know what you mean about having other philosophers around, but I'm sure your year group will be just as sociable as ours and you can get to know other people. If you are adamant you would like to be in a college with more than one philosopher, King's and Trinity seem to take the most, but there is on average about 2 in every college so chances are you won't be the only one. As for copies of texts, it's always best to read the normal version, but obviously you read around it and can look up chapter summaries on the internet if you want. None of the texts I've read have been that incomprehensible (if they are, it's because the ideas are complex rather than the way they are written...)

Reply 7

Trinity has 3, im pretty dure Fitz has 4, and Churchill has either 3 or 4. But most have two.

Reply 8

coldfish

12

NickkO

Thanks.

Now that I read what I've just said, I think you're right. I should go for what interests me most instead of what has the best future.

And about that last thing that you said, that maybe I should consider a university with a joint-degree (that's what it's called, right?). The weird thing is that I'm not quite sure what subject to study, but I am completely sure of the fact that I want to go to Cambridge. Whatever I want to study, it's there (I don't think I'd like the joint-degree thing anyway), and it's just an amazing university. I'm a sucker for old buildings and gowns, and I've got a thing for England (I'm Dutch), and Cambridge seems to me like England at its very best.

So what college are you in? I used to be quite sure (Either Clare, Peterhouse, Corpus or Caius), but now I'm totally desoriented. I still like Peterhouse, but it would be nice to not be the only phil-student there in my year, you know? I'd love to have someone you can chat with and not having to avoid phil because it will virtually bore them to death. Another question; when you read the original texts of philosophers, do the teachers mind if you obtain a more, lets say, modern copy? With a contemporary use of language? The fact that I'm Dutch would already make it more difficult for me to study in English, let alone the English of a few centuries ago. :P

Ok, it's a little worrying that you're more decided on Cambridge than you are on your subject. It's important that you decide what subject you want to study before deciding where is the best place for you to study it.
Secondly: Primarily, we study contemporary -analytic- philosophy at Cambridge. Of course we read the classics (Hume, Mill, Plato, Descartes), but the core of the course is written in the 20th Century. We do not, as far as I know, ever touch Foucault and his brethren. It is as dirty here as the sound of the word suggests. :P
Thirdly: I'm not trying to put you off here, but the articles we read for philosophy are very demanding. Your seem to have very good English (as most Dutch people seem to), but if you are worried about your ability to read then it might be an idea to test yourself out on some sample articles that I could send you.

I hope you do decide that you're able to and want to study Philosophy at Cambridge -- the TSR PhilCam army grows...

Reply 9

Jahmez23

it may also be worth considering oxford instead - they do a lot more combining of subjects, especially around philosophy.

Reply 10

coldfish

12

Indeed. Perhaps something like PPE is more your cup of tea?

Reply 11

OP

No, I've already thought about PPE. The economics really turn me off, though. I'm not oblivious to other good universities because I have set my mind on Cambridge.. I just reckon that, whatever subject I eventualle choose, Cambridge is one of the best places to study it at anyway. Don't get me wrong; I'm not going for the 'prestige' or the city itself. I'm going for the academical aspect. That I love the city is just a big bonus.

All of you and the graphs on the Cam site say that Phil really does have a high empoyment-rate, and you've got me conviced. But it's still hard to get rid of that image of philosophers being isolated, smart-yet-socially-disturbed, quirky people. I definetely don't think of them that way at all, but isn't it so that to the outside world studying philosophy might seem a weird choice? This is what my parents told me, btw. I want to work for the EU or the UN; would phil really add something to me as a politician except the fact of having a university degree? Of course it would, but will other people recognize that?

Reply 12

parkerpen

NickkO

No, I've already thought about PPE. The economics really turn me off, though. I'm not oblivious to other good universities because I have set my mind on Cambridge.. I just reckon that, whatever subject I eventualle choose, Cambridge is one of the best places to study it at anyway. Don't get me wrong; I'm not going for the 'prestige' or the city itself. I'm going for the academical aspect. That I love the city is just a big bonus.

All of you and the graphs on the Cam site say that Phil really does have a high empoyment-rate, and you've got me conviced. But it's still hard to get rid of that image of philosophers being isolated, smart-yet-socially-disturbed, quirky people. I definetely don't think of them that way at all, but isn't it so that to the outside world studying philosophy might seem a weird choice? This is what my parents told me, btw. I want to work for the EU or the UN; would phil really add something to me as a politician except the fact of having a university degree? Of course it would, but will other people recognize that?

If youwork for the UN or EU (both of which require you to be bi or multilingual if i remember correclty) you aren't a politician, you are a bureaucrat or diplomat - basically a civil servant. A university degree is very important in getting these jobs and I'm sure many of those who work in these insitutions have humanity/social science degrees such as philosophy, economics, history etc so that won't be a problem. Philosophy is no more or less useful for many of these jobs.

If you want to be a politician that is a different kettle of fish. I doubt many people really care what you have a degree in, or if you even have one. I ahve no idea if my MP at home has one or not and I only know that the Cambridge MP is a law lecturer becuase thats the job he was in before he became an MP. I doubt any of your consituents would care what degree you had as long as you were doing well.

And on top of all that the degree is relatively unimportant after your first job or two unless you are in academia. A lot of graduate employers won't care what degree you have either, as long as you have a 2i for the most part.

Reply 13

coldfish

12

Well, as mentioned above if you want to work for the EU/UN you are a civil servant rather than a politician. In terms of practical skills for that, philosophy is really quite useful. I can't imagine there's another subject where you have to read as demanding literature continuously.
I think perhaps a politics degree (or even better a PPE degree) is a slightly better way into politics than a philosophy degree, but you -can- study political philosophy. The above poster only mentions -being- a politician, but there are of course other jobs in politics, and philosophy is certainly one common way into it.

Don't dismiss PPE on the grounds of economics -- I think you can drop it after one year. It really looks as if you want to do a joint honours politics/philosophy degree, so look into the options which allow this in a more straightforward way than a tripos change at Cambridge.

Reply 14

DC_1234

NickkO

I'm highly interested in both Philosophy and SPS. I'd love to study Philosophy, but it doesn't offer a secure future, except for an academic one. SPS does offer a (kind of) secure future, and I'd like it, but not as much as Phil. So, when I heard about this combining thing in Cam, I was thrilled. But I don't quite get it yet. You have to read part 1A en 1B first, and then you can switch. So you can read part 2 in another subject, right? And in the end, what kind of diploma do you get?! If I begin with SPS and then switch to Philosophy, do I get a BA in Phil or SPS?

Ooorrr, does it mean that you read part 1A en 1B in lets say Phil, then switch to SPS, start with part 1A and then finish the study? The latter one seems really interesting, but the former one doesn't make any sense at all. I just want to study something I love ánd have the nice prospect of a career. It's all so difficult! :confused:

I can't even decide what subject I want to read!

There are as I read four five questions here, yes?*

1) Does philosophy offer a 'secure future' - not asked, but an answer assumed nonetheless.

2) What are the mechanics of changing subjects.

3) What do you 'get' if you change subjects.

4) The perennial issue of what factors should affect your choice of college.

*I've since writing decided the outline of my reply doesn't really fit the thread, but I'm having a hard enough problem following the thread I decided to post it regardless as some of it might be of use anyway.

1) I recognise and sympathise that this is a concern, but wish to stress in no uncertain terms that it should not be. Suppose we restrict the question to the employability (or perhaps that should be 'employment applicability') of philosophy vs SPS. It is true that there are probably less jobs out there which the content of philosophy is directly relevant true, save for academic ones. I think you should be careful to overrate the extent to which the subject matter of SPS is applicable to the 'wider world'. Many of the elements of the SPS tripos particularly within sociology and social psychology are just as arcane and abstruse as those found within philosophy. Whether or not that subject matter will be directly applicable to your job is largely dependant on what that job will be and unless you have a particular job in mind I don't see that the question of direct applicability gives you a good reason to study one subject over another which you imply you believe you would prefer.

What about indirect applicability? I take this to be a matter of 'transferrable skills' or suchlike. It is not clear that the skills which SPS might give you would leave you better suited for a career in politics or the civil service that those you would gain from studying philosophy. I won't say which gives 'better' skills (judged by what criteria? Measured how?), but rather affirm my own conviction that a) there isn't much to choose between them either way, b) philosophy does encourage a higher level of conceptual analysis than SPS which I take to be potentially more useful in informing thinking and c) the rather more worldly matters which SPS might leave you in an informed position about can equally well be approached either as an interested party at present (i.e. go read the economist) or later whenever you take on this ephemeral future job for which you believe SPS will be more useful.

As far as the attractiveness of one degree over the other, again there isn't much to choose between them and simply put employers don't. If you wish to become actively engaged in politics a far better route would be to work for an MP as an intern (a good number of Cambridge students do this), and the civil service is only really interested in your performance on its own internal tests; unless you did a language degree and want to join the foreign office but again SPS doesn't exactly have the drop on philosophy there.

I amn't going to tell you what to do, but if I were you I'd be very careful not to make a decision based upon a false premise: that philosophy is somehow 'unemployable' or 'irrelevant'. There really isn't a lot to choose between philosophy and SPS in employability stakes; it may make more sense to make an informed decision grounded upon the differences in subject matter based upon what you think you would be more interested in studying, not because of what you imagine might be the preferences of some ephemeral 'future potential employer'.

2) The only rule as I understand it is that you have to have a part I and a part II. The Cambridge tripos is rather confusingly split into two parts which span three years. In philosophy these are IA, IB and II. Only when you have taken IB have you finished part I. Changing before you have finished part I means (I believe, based on what little I know) generally that you have to degrade and start from first year once again. Transferring is also subject to restrictions imposed by the college's best judgement - at the end of the day it is your college who have the final say on the matter of whether they will allow you to switch. Usually the requirement is just a 2:1, but they will also factor in what experience you have relevant to the subject you are proposing transferring into and I believe it's pretty standard (it happens in Sidney at least) it tends to involve fairly serious discussion with the directors of both subjects. That said, there aren't as far as I am aware and major issues with changing from Philosophy to SPS save from that fact that SPS is a I, IIa, IIb subject which means you would have to switch from philosophy after your second year and effectively degrade (so you'll have done Philosophy Ia, Philosophy Ib, SPS IIa and SPS IIb). This is the route followed from anyone who decides they want to become a psychologists after taking Experimental Psychology in part IB (as two people did last year).

3) Technically what you 'get' in Cambridge is fairly undifferentiated in Cambridge. In the strictest sense the BA you get isn't divided into classes and IIRC isn't divided into subjects either. Consequently what you 'have' is really co-determined by a) what you put down on your CV and b) what Cambridge is willing to confirm to your prospective employers/academic institutions. Supposing you follow the scenario outlined above of Philosophy Ia, Ib and then SPS IIa, IIb. What do you 'have'? You have a Cambridge BA. What do you put down on your CV?

"Cambridge University B.A. Philosophy and Social and Political Sciences
Philosophy Tripos Part IA: 2:1 (or whatever)
Philosophy Tripos Part IB: 2:1
...
Social and Political Sciences Tripos Part IIB: 1st (or whatever)"

You write what you have. If for whatever reason you wish to compress your university qualifications into less than five lines (got to make room for those A-levels, right?) then you simply call it 'Philosophy and Social and Political Sciences' and give your final year's grade. No, there's not strictly such a degree as 'Philosophy and Social and Political Sciences' but as said, in the strictest sense there's no such thing as a degree class from Cambridge. If they ask, you or Cambridge can disambiguate what you mean, and it certainly wouldn't be false.

4) As a general rule of thumb the larger the college the greater the number of philosophers, though this is actually a little misleading as the correlation is only about 0.4. The colleges with the most undergraduates philosophers are (in order, figures based on last year):

Trinity, 14, Large College, Dos Maria-Frasca Spada (Kant & Hume, HPS)
King's, 13, Medium College, DoS Hallvard Lillehammer (Ethics)
Corpus Christi, 11, Small College, DoS Eric James (William James, Later Wittgenstein)
St John's, 11, Large College, DoS Jane Heal (Philosophy of Mind)
Jesus, 9, Large College, Dos Derek Matravers (Aesthetics)
Selwyn, 8, Medium College, DoS Sophia Connell (Politicial Philosophy IIRC)
Fitzwilliam, 8, Medium College, DoS Michael Potter (Mathematical Logic)
Clare, 8 Medium College, DoS Tim Lewens (HPS)

Corpus has by far and away the most philosophy undergraduates per head of undergraduate population. Robinson, Emma, Sidney, Newnham, Girton, Churchill, Caius, Queens' and Homerton tend to have 2 philosophers per year on average though obviously this varies as people either fail to make offers or there are very good interview candidates. There is no real method of 'ensuring' that there will be 2 in your particular year when you apply because while the college if obviously gambling that there will be sometimes it gets it wrong. I'm told that Magdalene for example has made two offers each year for the past while, yet last year only had one philosopher who has since changed to psychology. Just bad luck really. Unless you want a particularly large group of philosophers in your college I wouldn't say the number of philosophers should feature in your thinking too much.

Reply 15

Welcome back Duncan.

And although its not mentioned, it does vary a lot from year to year. For example in Pembroke, there is currently no one in second year at all, whereas there was 3 of us in the first year. So its not the easiest of things to predict. But generally what you say apart from that is correct.

Reply 16

DC_1234

-x-Nina-x-

Welcome back Duncan.

And although its not mentioned, it does vary a lot from year to year. For example in Pembroke, there is currently no one in second year at all, whereas there was 3 of us in the first year. So its not the easiest of things to predict. But generally what you say apart from that is correct.

I was wondering about Pembroke actually. Any idea what the story was: is it just the same thing as Magdalene - offers were made and people didn't make them?

Reply 17

only one offer, presumably unmade. There's two third years, I believe there were 3 and one swtiched. There's 4 next year, but one of those is a degraded student. So there's enough of us! To be honest it's good only having the two of us, means we have loads of other friends from other subjects, integrate with other philosophers whereas some people don't, yet we're still really good mates.

So don't write off colleges where there aren't many of you!

Reply 18