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Holes in most condoms? - Church say don't use them... watch

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    Is it me... or are you arguing against God, therfore against theism, therefore for for atheism...

    it only takes a community like you to convince someone God doesn't exist.

    Just like it takes a community, of believers to convince someone God does exist. - Your argument.

    it works both ways.
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    (Original post by Mad_Monkey59)
    Is it me... or are you arguing against God, therfore against theism, therefore for for atheism...

    it only takes a community like you to convince someone God doesn't exist.

    Just like it takes a community, of believers to convince someone God does exist. - Your argument.

    it works both ways.
    As Atheism is commonly understood it means lack of belief in god, here we take the common definition of God in the monotheistic sense of the major religions. It is not a decision to accept an opinion , it is merely the decision NOT to accept a religious opinion.
    A community of me would be doing no convincing whatsover, indoctrination is a religious trait.
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    Little Jonny comes home from school...

    what did you learn about today jonny.

    God

    Dont be silly God doesn't exist... i mean, why would Granny die, and your Dog get run over if God existed?

    Oh... well maybe he dosnt.


    You see atheism has no documents or sacred text, but is spread as easily in opinion as theism.
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    (Original post by Mad_Monkey59)
    Little Jonny comes home from school...

    what did you learn about today jonny.

    God

    Dont be silly God doesn't exist... i mean, why would Granny die, and your Dog get run over if God existed?

    Oh... well maybe he dosnt.


    You see atheism has no documents or sacred text, but is spread as easily in opinion as theism.
    Not at all. Il maintain your scenario for comparisons sake:

    {what did you learn about today jonny?

    Evolution

    Dont be silly evolution is only a theory after all our merciful God and saviour jesus christ the lord almighty created the earth in 6 days and created humanity through Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden..well to cut a long story short believe in this or youl burn in hell for all eternity.}

    Now i wonder which places more pressure on the child?
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    Does the promise of God not existing... and a lifetime of uncertainty challenge adults more then children, yes... thats something for Jonny to look forward to.

    Doubtlessly, both arguments effect the population in similar ways.

    To argue one does and one dosnt is illogical.
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    (Original post by an Siarach)
    Expecting a population to maintain abstinance is the type of naivete only the religious could suffer from. Any survey taken by the church would be biased towards finding the results they desired and i dont really think its necessary to be a practising catholic or anything else to have knowledge about the churches teachings. The church has its stance on condoms because its set against premarital coitus.
    Abstinance was widely practiced in this country and around the world up until the last 60's.

    It is not now, only because of the social change since then. But as we know, society goes in circles so before long abstinence will again be the norm before marriage.

    Regarding the Churches teachings - there are few people who have an indepth knowledge of them apart from practitioners of the faith. There are of course the exceptions but they do tend to be very much in the minority. People who have opinions on the faith of others are influenced and take as gospel (no pun intended) whatever they read or see in the media. There is a lot of misinformation abounding and some of it deliberately so. For instance, most of us believe that Muslims demand that their women cover up their bodies and don't allow them the benefit of advanced education. That they are subject to their men - that is not what a Muslim would tell us, rather, their women hold a very special and revered place in their society.

    The Church disagrees with premarital sex - have you ever found out why? Or are you just re-iterating what you have been told elsewhere? The Church is also against artificial means of contraception between married people, although it is not against contraception per se.
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    (Original post by yawn1)
    Abstinance was widely practiced in this country and around the world up until the last 60's.

    It is not now, only because of the social change since then. But as we know, society goes in circles so before long abstinence will again be the norm before marriage.
    Fair enough, although id be surprised if abstinence becomes the norm again though id welcome the prospect of people managing to live with such self restraint

    (Original post by yawn1)
    Regarding the Churches teachings - there are few people who have an indepth knowledge of them apart from practitioners of the faith. There are of course the exceptions but they do tend to be very much in the minority. People who have opinions on the faith of others are influenced and take as gospel (no pun intended) whatever they read or see in the media. There is a lot of misinformation abounding and some of it deliberately so. For instance, most of us believe that Muslims demand that their women cover up their bodies and don't allow them the benefit of advanced education. That they are subject to their men - that is not what a Muslim would tell us, rather, their women hold a very special and revered place in their society.
    There are at least as many outwith the practitioners who have a comprehensive knowledge to match any cleric, the average practitioner is frighteningly ignorant of almost all aspects of their faith and its history while the average man outwith the church will probably have knowledge of it to equal the average man within it - the result of the religious indoctrination that goes on you see.
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    (Original post by an Siarach)
    Fair enough, although id be surprised if abstinence becomes the norm again though id welcome the prospect of people managing to live with such self restraint



    There are at least as many outwith the practitioners who have a comprehensive knowledge to match any cleric, the average practitioner is frighteningly ignorant of almost all aspects of their faith and its history while the average man outwith the church will probably have knowledge of it to equal the average man within it - the result of the religious indoctrination that goes on you see.
    I would be surprised if 'Joe public' had as much knowledge of the faith of the practitioner as does the practioner him/herself. How many Catholics for instance, are there in the world? I think it's about half billion but I stand corrected (at least until I've had a chance to do a check!) Do you seriously contend that another half billion non-members know as much about the teachings as do the members?

    If the lack of knowledge is a result of religious 'indoctrination' then the process if very flawed, would you not agree?
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    (Original post by yawn1)
    I would be surprised if 'Joe public' had as much knowledge of the faith of the practitioner as does the practioner him/herself. How many Catholics for instance, are there in the world? I think it's about half billion but I stand corrected (at least until I've had a chance to do a check!) Do you seriously contend that another half billion non-members know as much about the teachings as do the members?
    Generally ( i speak here of the western world) the average guy will happily go along, mumble along with the hymns, read(but not understand) the bible and happily go along with whatever his priest/minister/cleric tells him he should believe. Tell me why when a man is literate, and the Bible has been translated into his language, is a priest or minister necessary to tell him what to believe - he has the word of God in his hand after all why the extra human element? surely if anything its an extra barrier between himself and God.

    (Original post by yawn1)
    If the lack of knowledge is a result of religious 'indoctrination' then the process if very flawed, would you not agree?
    The statement was regarding the average knowledge of the non-believer/church gower being as a result of indoctrination. Just becase X number of people claim to follow a religion does not guarentee they know much or anything about it, its all tribal, if you were born into a certain type of family youl just put down your parents belief. Incidently i believe the number of Catholics was closer to the 1Billion mark, however should there be a test on general theology and doctrine for them the number of them qualified as catholics would be far FAR lower.
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    (Original post by an Siarach)
    Generally ( i speak here of the western world) the average guy will happily go along, mumble along with the hymns, read(but not understand) the bible and happily go along with whatever his priest/minister/cleric tells him he should believe. Tell me why when a man is literate, and the Bible has been translated into his language, is a priest or minister necessary to tell him what to believe - he has the word of God in his hand after all why the extra human element? surely if anything its an extra barrier between himself and God.



    The statement was regarding the average knowledge of the non-believer/church gower being as a result of indoctrination. Just becase X number of people claim to follow a religion does not guarentee they know much or anything about it, its all tribal, if you were born into a certain type of family youl just put down your parents belief. Incidently i believe the number of Catholics was closer to the 1Billion mark, however should there be a test on general theology and doctrine for them the number of them qualified as catholics would be far FAR lower.
    I do not believe that the 'average' man will just go along with whatever his vicar/priest/rabbi tells him.

    I think that as we come into our teens we re-evaluate our position in society, our parents ideals etc. simply because of the stage of development we are in. We question everything that affects us (teen rebellion it is probably classed as). Among those things will be any beliefs in God we may have. For many, it is a time of faith crisis. It cannot become a crisis without thinking deeply about it.

    I think you do a disservice to your fellow human beings by undermining their reasoning powers.

    A minister is not there to 'tell' someone what to believe. When Christ told his disciples 'go, preach My Word, feed my lambs and feed my sheep' He was instructing them to be like the shepherd with his flock. The minister acts as a point of reference - he cannot tell someone what they must believe - faith is a gift from God.
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    (Original post by yawn1)
    I think you do a disservice to your fellow human beings by undermining their reasoning powers.
    No i make a realistic evaluation of the average mans ignorance and yearning to be lead so they dont have to think for themselves

    (Original post by yawn1)
    A minister is not there to 'tell' someone what to believe. When Christ told his disciples 'go, preach My Word, feed my lambs and feed my sheep' He was instructing them to be like the shepherd with his flock. The minister acts as a point of reference - he cannot tell someone what they must believe - faith is a gift from God.
    In which case ministers and priests have a valid place in africa or some other distraught part of the world were they can truly spread the world and help the illiterate rather than leech off those who need no spiritual guidance. What could a man need more than the word of God to guide him or to use as reference? and contrary to the ideal in which you believe (that they serve as a point of reference) most people will happily just accept their clerics belief as gospel.

    (Original post by yawn1)
    faith is a gift from God.
    And so what you are saying is that God deliberately creates those who he knows will not accept whatever sect of his supposed truth which they happen to be exposed to for no purpose other than to go to hell? I tell you the concept of God is difficult enough to defend when you believe in access to heaven for those of good character and good lives - when you bring in this predestination nonsense where the only prerequisite for entrance to heaven is that God decided befoer you were born that you would have 'faith' it becomes even more of a farce.(oh and also blows the free-will argument to ****,but then contradicting oneself is something of a religious past time after all)
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    (Original post by an Siarach)
    No i make a realistic evaluation of the average mans ignorance and yearning to be lead so they dont have to think for themselves



    In which case ministers and priests have a valid place in africa or some other distraught part of the world were they can truly spread the world and help the illiterate rather than leech off those who need no spiritual guidance. What could a man need more than the word of God to guide him or to use as reference? and contrary to the ideal in which you believe (that they serve as a point of reference) most people will happily just accept their clerics belief as gospel.



    And so what you are saying is that God deliberately creates those who he knows will not accept whatever sect of his supposed truth which they happen to be exposed to for no purpose other than to go to hell? I tell you the concept of God is difficult enough to defend when you believe in access to heaven for those of good character and good lives - when you bring in this predestination nonsense where the only prerequisite for entrance to heaven is that God decided befoer you were born that you would have 'faith' it becomes even more of a farce.(oh and also blows the free-will argument to ****,but then contradicting oneself is something of a religious past time after all)
    You misinterpret what I say - 'Faith is a gift from God'

    God offers us the gift of Faith - whether we choose to accept it or not is up to us, because we have free will.

    For those who do not or will not believe, at the point of death, they will have the opportunity to believe as God will be revealed to them. Most will believe, a few will not due to their own pride. They will turn their back on God and the consequences are their responsibility.

    But it makes no difference what I say as you do not have faith so I think it's time to call it a day on this particular discussion as we have no way of resolving it.

    I would ask though, why you are so interested in discussing the existence of God? Are you hoping to bring believers round to your way of thinking?

    I would guess that there is more chance of a snowball not melting in Hell than that! :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by yawn1)
    You misinterpret what I say - 'Faith is a gift from God'

    God offers us the gift of Faith - whether we choose to accept it or not is up to us, because we have free will.

    For those who do not or will not believe, at the point of death, they will have the opportunity to believe as God will be revealed to them. Most will believe, a few will not due to their own pride. They will turn their back on God and the consequences are their responsibility.
    As i say, the purest and most ethical of men having lived lives of honesty and goodness will go to hell for not believing in this ridiculous being.

    (Original post by yawn1)
    But it makes no difference what I say as you do not have faith so I think it's time to call it a day on this particular discussion as we have no way of resolving it.

    I would ask though, why you are so interested in discussing the existence of God? Are you hoping to bring believers round to your way of thinking?

    I would guess that there is more chance of a snowball not melting in Hell than that! :rolleyes:
    Its a debating forum you ****, and nice insult thrown with your exit there, almost as good as the last one ''well all you unbelievers are going to hell when judgement day comes and youl know then that i was right.''
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    I think what the catholic church is teaching about condoms is very dangerous. Guarenteed the best way to prevent HIV is abstinance but the whole population of the world isn't going to abstain and for protecting against HIV condoms are the best option.
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    (Original post by elpaw)
    Religion isn't natural and thus wrong.
    haha thats a very good point.. in the panorama programme, the priest said that dogs dont use condoms and its therefore not natural and therefore wrong.. but i dont see any dogs going to church on a sunday or getting down on their knees 5 times a day to worship........
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    (Original post by presebjenada)
    haha thats a very good point.. in the panorama programme, the priest said that dogs dont use condoms and its therefore not natural and therefore wrong.. but i dont see any dogs going to church on a sunday or getting down on their knees 5 times a day to worship........
    Or abstaining from sex befor marriage . I just don't get how the church can cite nature to back up one argument but then ignor the nature behind sex in the first place.
 
 
 
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