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Odyssey vs Aeneid Comparison

Hi guys, ive got the A2 Grk/Roman epic in about 10 days time and i was wondering what topics i should make notes to cpmpare.

I was thinking:

Role of Gods in both epics.

Role of Men/women

Role of family/duty

Who is more heroic?

etc.

What else would be a cood topic of focus and if you guys have any advice and notes it would be extremely helpful.

Thx in advance.

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Reply 1

KathyL

I mite not be able to help but as I'm kinda looking at comparisons between Virgil and Homer for my A2 Roman epic exam I thought I'd try! I'm doing AQA. Wot board are u doing?

I would also say the theme of fate, omens, the use of similies, the different styles of hero. I was also told to look at contemporary issues for the Aeneid (as my exam focuses on that) like Augustan Rome and also the influences Virgil may have had such as the Roman love of Greek culture so Homer obviously.

Hope this helps a little
Kathy

Reply 2

SamLowry

Im doing the OCR board.

The theme of fate is a good one as is omens and styles of hero.

the use of similies could come in handy but i don't think that an essay will be based on it (although i suppose the question could be something like "Who was the better poet, Homer or virgil?" or "in what ways where the two similar/not similar?" etc.)

Reply 3

KathyL

yeah, I should have put stylistic features rather than similies. You should probably also look at Greek and Roman culture too though I don't know how much OCR like you to know about that. Might be useful.

Kathy

Reply 4

SamLowry

I think on the specification they said somehting like "background knowledge of Greek/Roman culture is useful, although detailed knowledge is not required"

So basically, i know the vague attitudes of greek/roman attitudes, and some of the political implications of the Aeneid, but not a lot. (like the references to Hannibal when dido says that their people [romans vs carthage/tunisia] will be forever at odds or summat like that )

Reply 5

Q.E.D

There was a class civ question on here a while ago; who was more villainous, the suitors or turnus
but you guys seem to have most of the main points that I can think of..
Good luck

Reply 6

sat41

SamLowry

I can think of lots of things in the Iliad, but I'm not sure whether you have to include this in your exam, so I'll leave it out, or I'll end up ranting for ages!

Odysseus isn't exactly a hero (I seem to recall a part where his knees tremble when the suitors reclaim armour, and he only recovers once Athene has called him a tosser, or words to that effect), then again, even if it puts me in the minority, I can't stand Aeneas. He is always spared from being in the direct line of battle for far too long (in the Iliad and the Aeneid). Once again, Aeneas has mummy telling him when he will and won't be alright, and a few other gods along the way to help. I'm with Juno. There is also the way they treat women. Odysseus has a rather troublesome and extended journey back home to his wife, Penelope, who has more backbone than most of the men put together. Aeneas on the other hand, has no wife, putting responsibility and duty above Dido. Yet, in a way, his situation is totally different, since he is the start of the race, rather than returning in a different generation as Odysseus was. I don't know if I would compare the two as fathers.....Odysseus goes back to his dutiful and obedient son, whereas Aeneas' seems to disappear rather early on (having been in charge of an army whilst daddy was safely upstream, of course). I always wondered whether Venus' speech to Jupiter in Book X "do what you will with Aeneas but save my grandson" was to encourage Jupiter to save his grandson, thus ensuring the safety of both...I just think women are cunning, so that's a possible theory.

Reply 7

Q.E.D

Odysseus is smarter than he is brave , brains over brawn, but Aeneas seems to be the opposite.
Aeneas is bound by an outward force to keep on to Italy, whereas Odysseus is himeslef motivated to get home. His quest for home seems much more personal than Aeneas'.
Small point, but Aeneas WANTS to stay with Dido, but Odysseus is FORCED to stay with Calypso.

Reply 8

SamLowry

Q.E.D

There was a class civ question on here a while ago; who was more villainous, the suitors or turnus
but you guys seem to have most of the main points that I can think of..
Good luck

yeah i answered that in a context question a couple of weeks ago and got about 18 or 19 our of 20 marks for it :biggrin:

. I think i said that overall the suitors were more vllainous with their improper use of xenia, plotting amongst other things although Amphinomous was one decent suitor. Turnus on the other hand displays a lot of positive character traits (such as honour/bravery, perhaps foolish - doesnt want to runaway from fighting) along with his negative characteristics.

Reply 9

Q.E.D

I would have thought that Turnus' only real flaw is his arrogance. Otherwise he seems to fit in with the heroic ideal presented by Virgil- he is brave, defends his fatherland, is a strong leader.

Reply 10

figureeight

You could talk about how violence is used mebbe? Virgil uses quite graphic violence in relatively short bursts compared to Homer who really doesnt hold back with the whole gore thing...

I'm only doing AS, so that^ is probably complete rubbish, but anywho...

Reply 11

x_muso_x

who's a better leader aeneas/odysseus?
presentation of values in their respective societies?
how both relate to the 21st century - that has actually come up, bit of an odd question...
heroism
villainy
similarities/differences in writing style/storytelling etc

plus all the ones everyone else has mentioned :smile:

Reply 12

Q.E.D

Also the difference in purpose of the two poets. Homer, as a bard, was simply preserving a myth, but Virgil had a political motive behind his poem.

Reply 13

username84864

I don't know if you have these, but here are some of the OCR synoptic essay titles that have come up in the past (I don't have dates unfortunately so I don't know which ones are more likely to be repeated):

[*]'In the Odyssey mortal women help Odysseus as much as Aeneas is hindered by them in the Aeneid.' How far do you agree with this statement?
[*]Which epic places more emphasis on loyalty, the Odyssey or the Aeneid?
[*]Which epic do you think would make a better film, the Odyssey or the Aeneid?

[*]'Justice is a theme of all great literature.' Is justice more important in the Odyssey or in the Aeneid?
[*]'The Aeneid is a more serious work than the Odyssey.' How far do you agree...
[*]'The gods of the Aeneid deserve more respect than those of the Odyssey' How far...

[*]Why is portrayed as more heroic, Odysseus or Aeneas?
[*]'It is a weakness on Virgil's part that he follows Homer too closely.' How far...
[*]Which epic do you find more optimistic, the Odyssey or the Aeneid?

[*]Who has a closer relationship with his father, Odysseus or Aeneas?
[*]'The Odyssey has greater emotional impact than the Aeneid.' How far...
[*]How similar is the role of Jupiter in the Aeneid to the role of Zeus in the Odyssey?

Reply 14

SamLowry

thanks tacceber. I've answered a few of them already. in the next 6 days i'll answer some and plan some of them as part of my revision. Cheers.

Reply 15

SamLowry

ive made a start and got through a couple of plans for essays suggested by tacceber but im struggling with points for this question:

'The Aeneid is a more serious work than the Odyssey.' How far do you agree?

Any help will be really appreciated.

Reply 16

SamLowry

can anyone help with this? please? :confused:

Reply 17

Q.E.D

Well the Aenied was written almost like propaganda so had a more serious purpose maybe? whereas the Odyssey was just preserving a myth, so wasn't really making a point...
Aeneas is driven by duty, and sticks to it no matter, whereas Odysseus does wander from his aims to a certain extent
That's all I can think of now..

Reply 18

x_muso_x

Aeneid is driven by fate/prophecy that Aeneas has to found the city that will become Rome - a whole race of people practically depends on his success, and the fact that the audience of the time would feel as if they were a 'product' of that, give the whole thing more weight...

Reply 19

Satine

EDIT: Oh my God, I'm so sorry about the length of this. I didn't realise. :eek:

The Aeneid's definitely more weighty thematically, as x_muso_x says. The audience were basically reading about where they came from - if Aeneas had failed, they wouldn't exist. It's like people get pretty awed reading about the World Wars today, thinking how differently things could have turned out if the other side had won. Odysseus is taking a personal quest - if he'd got eaten by the Cyclops, for example, it wouldn't impact on anything in the long term. It's entertaining to follow, but he's not changing the world.

The Odyssey contains more fantasy, I suppose. There are monsters in the Aeneid, like the Cyclops appears briefly, Scylla gets a mention, etc., and there are those sea serpents which do Laocoon in during the Trojan War, but there's not as much emphasis on them and they seem to be as much in homage to Homer as anything else - the conflict tends to be more between people, and if I'm remembering correctly, there had been some sort of war around the time Virgil wrote it (am I right? I can't for the life of me remember which war), so it'd be possible to relate to. Even when the Odyssey gets scary, it's less 'real' - the main human-to-human conflict is Odysseus and the Suitors, and that ends with him basically just walking in and massacring them. It's not so much there to be nail-bitingly suspenseful, it's just fun watching them get their comeuppance.

You could use the way they treat women as an illustration of the respective levels of seriousness - Odysseus has fun with them, even when the situation's not ideal (okay, Calypso's got him incarcerated, but they still 'find pleasure in making love' the night before he leaves...and yes, maybe Circe does turn his men into pigs, but he can't be having all that terrible a time - doesn't he end up staying a year?), whereas even when things seem idyllic - Aeneas is a widower, in a safe environment in Carthage, and has Dido absolutely falling at his feet (he's the one in the position of power - look at the deer simile in book 4, he's 'hunting' her), but he's compelled by his destiny to put the fate of the Romans before himself. You could argue that as soon as a hero has to stop being selfish the epic immediately becomes more serious. And the chasm between the two heroes widens when you consider Odysseus has a wife back at home.

Kinda tough to argue in favour of the Aeneid being the less serious work *thinks*. You could look at the subplots following the sons, I guess (although Ascanius's is hardly a subplot, but even so). Telemachus is making a journey of massive personal growth - he spends the first couple of books moping about and waiting for his father to come back and sort things out for him. He makes a couple of mistakes when he's starting out (I would argue that he gets a bit too disrespectful to his mother at times, for example, and he gets a bit hysterical when he's making his speech in - is it Book 3?) but by the end of the epic he's slaughtering Suitors alongside Odysseus.

Ascanius, on the other hand, could almost be seen as being there for light relief - obviously he's important since he takes charge of Rome when his father dies, but that's outside the narrative. He tends to be presented in situations like the hunt in Book 4 where he's praying for something ridiculous like 'a lion or a foaming boar' to come down from the mountains - we know even an adult would see that as pretty challenging, and he just seems kind of endearing for thinking he'd be able to handle it. There's also the bit in the funeral games where he comes out with some of the other younger Trojans and they put on a horse show, mimicking the adults - it's sweet, and he never really seems to mature fully. It seems like Pallas grows up more rapidly than Ascanius later on - we see him leading an army in Book 10, which I don't THINK we ever observe Ascanius doing (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). His story isn't the serious bildungsroman that Telemachus's is.

Oh, think about the respective Underworlds, maybe? Aeneas has a tougher time in his, arguably, given that he has to actually go down *into* the Underworld whereas Odysseus can just sit there and lure the ghosts up with his little puddle of blood. Obviously neither of them has a super fun time, but the Odyssey treats it more entertainingly, with the list of people and their stories who the audience would have heard of, whereas Aeneas's is more of a serious journey which gets all sad when he speaks to Achilles who says he'd rather be the lowliest man on earth than king of all the dead. Also there's more emphasis on the world itself and less on the people in it in Virgil's underworld - therefore less interesting/'entertaining', more nightmarish.

Also. There are jokes in the Odyssey, kind of (or at least one joke that I can think of). There's a line in book 1 which is translated as 'Why are you at odds with Odysseus?' (Athene to Zeus) - I don't know the original Greek, but perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me could venture it. It's wordplay, anyway, and I can't think of anything quite like that in the Aeneid.

Wow, this has come down pretty heavily on the side of the Aeneid being more serious, but I suppose it was always going to. I suppose you could argue that the gods in the Aeneid are more petty and therefore less intimidating/serious, but that's a bit tenuous. Anyway, I'm just throwing out ideas, and I suspect a lot of them are rubbish (if I've ignored a massive wodge of evidence in any of this PLEASE tell me, I've got the exam on Monday and if I've been incredibly stupid it'd be nice to know before then - I'm well aware that while there's a lot of stuff here, there's a good chance some of it's inaccurate), but I hope this helps a bit, at least. I'm not going to go back and proof-read this, I'm determined to try and figure out the plot of Book 3 of the Aeneid before the end of the evening, so sorry if any of it doesn't make sense, it's just a brain-dump. Woo.