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Low Uni spots for Medicine when there is shortage of doctors? watch

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    I was wondering recently, and I bet this has been answered numerous times, if there is such a shortage of Doctors in the UK then why are there so little spaces for Medicine at University?
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    For one: limited facilities, you have to think about teaching (optimal class sizes), placement arrangements etc. for students.

    Also: there will probably always be a shortage of doctors.
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    Lack of funding, its all very political. Cheaper to import docs in than it is to train them
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    (Original post by Zain-A)
    Lack of funding, its all very political. Cheaper to import docs in than it is to train them
    Thanks TR-8R.
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    Government-imposed quotas. Simples.
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    Also, lack of drs is in certain specialities (GP, A&E, psych) and not a lack of foundation program places (the FP is oversubscribed every year). Thus, they can't increase medical school places without increasing the number of foundation places (which would be very costly).
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    (Original post by Billy_Boi)
    Thanks TR-8R.
    The tories are TRAITORS
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    (Original post by liam__)
    Also, lack of drs is in certain specialities (GP, A&E, psych) and not a lack of foundation program places (the FP is oversubscribed every year). Thus, they can't increase medical school places without increasing the number of foundation places (which would be very costly).

    I'm quite curious about this, why is there such a shortage of psychs? Like I get why there's a shortage of A&E (Rising population, departments oversubscribes, many people us A&E when they could use another NHS service etc etc, also the fact no one wants to do this job past junior doc level) and GP's (I presume its also to do with the increasing needs of the rising population) but why psychiatrists? Is the gov just ignoring mental health care, do doctors not want to specialise in pysch? Is it pretty intense? Bad conditions?

    (Original post by Helenia)
    Government-imposed quotas. Simples.
    I've tagged you because I think your a doctor? So you might know
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    Its all down to money. More medical students means more facilities at medical schools, hospitals and GP surgeries, It costs tens of thousands of pounds to train a single doctor, its cheaper to import doctors, nurses and PAMs from overseas because the govt don't have to pay for their training and they can get rid of them by fiddling immigration laws.
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    They used to have to offer foundation training (or house jobs as then called) to all UK qualified doctors. Now for reasons I don't understand and which seem a huge waste of money they don't.
    Also too many wannabe doctors want to be surgeons and neurologists where as we need 50% to be GPs and a lot more to be A&E docs.
    A&E is unpopular as still a lot of night and weekend shifts where you are busy even when senior and you don't get paid much more for the inconvenience.
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    In most cases its mostly RG universities and a few outside of the RG group which provide the MBBS degree. Medicine cannot go down the route that Law has done or you will get everyone trying to apply to BCU and DMU with CCC in the hopes of becoming a Lawyer/doctor. Universities can only offer so many places and only so many universities should be allowed to even provide the degree.
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    (Original post by TSRFT8)
    In most cases its mostly RG universities and a few outside of the RG group which provide the MBBS degree. Medicine cannot go down the route that Law has done or you will get everyone trying to apply to BCU and DMU with CCC in the hopes of becoming a Lawyer/doctor. Universities can only offer so many places and only so many universities should be allowed to even provide the degree.
    I understand fully well what you are saying but I'm not even saying that people with lower grades should be given places, the reason I asked the question in the first place is because so many people with AAA or even A*AA have been rejected for medicine and it worries me because I want to apply as well.
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    (Original post by Zain-A)
    I'm quite curious about this, why is there such a shortage of psychs? Like I get why there's a shortage of A&E (Rising population, departments oversubscribes, many people us A&E when they could use another NHS service etc etc, also the fact no one wants to do this job past junior doc level) and GP's (I presume its also to do with the increasing needs of the rising population) but why psychiatrists? Is the gov just ignoring mental health care, do doctors not want to specialise in pysch? Is it pretty intense? Bad conditions?

    I've tagged you because I think your a doctor? So you might know
    People just don't want to be psychiatrists. Combination of factors - a feeling it's not "real medicine," lots of difficult patients/scenarios, poorly funded and resourced services, isolation from the rest of the hospital community, and so on. One of my best friends was really keen on psychiatry all through med school and got into Core Training easily, but having completed that has decided not to apply for reg jobs and is switching to GP because she's so fed up with the system not working.
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    (Original post by Billy_Boi)
    I understand fully well what you are saying but I'm not even saying that people with lower grades should be given places, the reason I asked the question in the first place is because so many people with AAA or even A*AA have been rejected for medicine and it worries me because I want to apply as well.
    The stages of recruitment (if you will) in medicine are far superior to that of say Economics. People with A*A*A* can be rejected if the university feels they lack other qualities. In medicine grades are pretty much secondary, my friend had 5 A`s at AS and was predicted 4 A*s for A-level got interviewed and rejected by all 4. She is a really shy girl and its things like that which universities see in you and think you wont be suited to a career.

    Again i do understand your point but realistically too overcome this issue you either lower university requirements or ask "lesser" universities to offer the degree. I would not worry, as i said grades are secondary (you still need AAA or better) but having 20 A*s will be of no use if you answer "ummmm" after every interview question.
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    (Original post by Zain-A)
    and GP's (I presume its also to do with the increasing needs of the rising population)

    I think with GPs, it is a symptom of a collapse in entrepreneurial spirit amongst the classes entering traditional professions.

    How many law graduates want to set up their own firms? Likewise, pharmacists, Vets, dentists, opticians. How many teachers hope to raise some money and buy or set up their own prep school? In the same way few doctors hope to make money from setting up or becoming a member of a GP practice.
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    (Original post by Zain-A)
    I'm quite curious about this, why is there such a shortage of psychs? Like I get why there's a shortage of A&E (Rising population, departments oversubscribes, many people us A&E when they could use another NHS service etc etc, also the fact no one wants to do this job past junior doc level) and GP's (I presume its also to do with the increasing needs of the rising population) but why psychiatrists? Is the gov just ignoring mental health care, do doctors not want to specialise in pysch? Is it pretty intense? Bad conditions?
    I worked in psychiatry last year. In addition to the above, Its just... very different to other medicine. Your inpatients are invariably with you for months and mostly do not want to be there, not infrequently to the point of violence. You will rarely get thanked for anything you do. Whilst a lot of mental health is eminently treatable, by the time a patient has had to be referred to a psychiatrist the outlook is not great and very few of your patients will ever be 'cured' and when it does its a long process. A lot of your time is spent filling out long forms getting legal permission for everything you do. You will spend a lot of time at section appeals defending your actions. You are also very likely to be sued by unhappy patients/family and if even one of your patients ends up dying/being violent in the community then there's a good chance your name will be in the Daily Mail so that is always that threat hanging over your head. The actual job is really easy compared to other medical specialities, but people just do not want to do it.

    Its also the third biggest speciality (after GP and anaesthetics) which adds to the problem.

    (Original post by Maker)
    Its all down to money. More medical students means more facilities at medical schools, hospitals and GP surgeries, It costs tens of thousands of pounds to train a single doctor,
    Hundreds of thousands! The normal estimate quoted is £250,000.

    Yeah that's pretty much it. They'd rather get developing countries to pay for the training then take the product than pay for it themselves.

    (Original post by taysidefrog)
    They used to have to offer foundation training (or house jobs as then called) to all UK qualified doctors. Now for reasons I don't understand and which seem a huge waste of money they don't.
    But they do? There's always concerns about over-subscription but to my knowledge once all is said and done and those who fail finals are removed no one has missed out to date.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    I think with GPs, it is a symptom of a collapse in entrepreneurial spirit amongst the classes entering traditional professions.

    How many law graduates want to set up their own firms? Likewise, pharmacists, Vets, dentists, opticians. How many teachers hope to raise some money and buy or set up their own prep school? In the same way few doctors hope to make money from setting up or becoming a member of a GP practice.
    Yeah you're right with this comment, the GP I did my work exp with owned his own surgery, but he shut it down and now works for a bigger surgery that employs several GPs. Its quite hard to run your own surgery tbh..
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    I worked in psychiatry last year. In addition to the above, Its just... very different to other medicine. Your inpatients are invariably with you for months and mostly do not want to be there, not infrequently to the point of violence. You will rarely get thanked for anything you do. Whilst a lot of mental health is eminently treatable, by the time a patient has had to be referred to a psychiatrist the outlook is not great and very few of your patients will ever be 'cured' and when it does its a long process. A lot of your time is spent filling out long forms getting legal permission for everything you do. You will spend a lot of time at section appeals defending your actions. You are also very likely to be sued by unhappy patients/family and if even one of your patients ends up dying/being violent in the community then there's a good chance your name will be in the Daily Mail so that is always that threat hanging over your head. The actual job is really easy compared to other medical specialities, but people just do not want to do it.

    Its also the third biggest speciality (after GP and anaesthetics) which adds to the problem.



    Hundreds of thousands! The normal estimate quoted is £250,000.

    Yeah that's pretty much it. They'd rather get developing countries to pay for the training then take the product than pay for it themselves.



    But they do? There's always concerns about over-subscription but to my knowledge once all is said and done and those who fail finals are removed no one has missed out to date.
    Yes, it does cost a lot to train doctors, some more than others. All doctors are suppose to have on going training even after they have been in the job for 20 years or more because there is so much new treatments and investigations coming out all the time. I used to work for a GP practice and all the GPs went on courses for all sorts of things. It helps to break up the working week and meet other GPs.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    I think with GPs, it is a symptom of a collapse in entrepreneurial spirit amongst the classes entering traditional professions.

    How many law graduates want to set up their own firms? Likewise, pharmacists, Vets, dentists, opticians. How many teachers hope to raise some money and buy or set up their own prep school? In the same way few doctors hope to make money from setting up or becoming a member of a GP practice.
    GPs unlike hospital doctors have to invest in the practice if they want to become a partner. Not all GPs want to get a big loan to invest or get tied down to a single location. There is arguably more prestige being a hospital consultant than a GP which matters to some people.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    GPs unlike hospital doctors have to invest in the practice if they want to become a partner. Not all GPs want to get a big loan to invest or get tied down to a single location. There is arguably more prestige being a hospital consultant than a GP which matters to some people.
    That is a change in attitude, which as I say, is not confined to medicine and is really a product of the last 25 years or so. I know an optician who, on qualifying and with help from the Bank of Mum and Dad, set up her own practice. That was almost seen as bizarre yet 30 years ago either setting up a practice or buying into one would have the obvious thing for an optician to do.
 
 
 
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