Immigrants aren't the problem
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Original post by Davij038
Although I have that tendency, i don't think i did so then.
You asserted that immigration kept wages down, when actually the duty of that is the employer.
If you do not believe the employer has any ethical obligations you should also consider other factors (Such as automation) which will effect how low skill businesses factor in when employing staff.
You asserted that immigration kept wages down, when actually the duty of that is the employer.
If you do not believe the employer has any ethical obligations you should also consider other factors (Such as automation) which will effect how low skill businesses factor in when employing staff.
I know all about automation thanks very much but if employers can get away with paying the minimum wage they will
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Yeah I'm quite tired of all this immigration talk too.
It makes me laugh when people complain about them "stealing jobs"... Well who's giving them the jobs in the first place? Is it not likely to be British born people? Go complain to them, not the immigrants who are smart enough to take first grabs at an opportunity while British born people sit around on their arses complaining about not having a job. At the end of the day, these immigrants are doing what any other person in their position would do. Don't blame them, blame employers and ultimately the government if you really can't stand people coming to this country.
It makes me laugh when people complain about them "stealing jobs"... Well who's giving them the jobs in the first place? Is it not likely to be British born people? Go complain to them, not the immigrants who are smart enough to take first grabs at an opportunity while British born people sit around on their arses complaining about not having a job. At the end of the day, these immigrants are doing what any other person in their position would do. Don't blame them, blame employers and ultimately the government if you really can't stand people coming to this country.
Original post by paul514
I'm sorry I don't know much about the economy of Norfolk lol.
I do know about supply and demand though
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I do know about supply and demand though
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You see this is the problem. People read an A level or gcse textbook and sudenly think that they are experts at economics.
Economics in a text book is not the same as economics in real life. Yes supply and demand are the general principles, but tha's all they are. There are numerous different qualifications and factors in real life which you and many others don't factor in.
You have claimed less immigrants means people will be higher paid but that's not necesserily true for two reasons.
The first is that less immigrants also means less demand. Secondly corporations will always pay as little as they can and people being poor will take what they can get. They will always find people willing to do minimum wage jobs and that;s not jsut because there are not other jobs out there, it may be that they are not skilled enough to do other jobs.
FInally the fact that in places like Norfolk where there is virtually no immigration, that wages are not higher proves you wrong. If you were right, wages in areas with no immigration would be higher. Yet the Mcdonalds there pays the same as it does everywhere else.
Economics is far more naunced, complex and varied than a simple equation which can be applied to all circumstances.
Original post by paul514
if employers can get away with paying the minimum wage they will
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Posted from TSR Mobile
And how will reducing immigration* change this?
*Which seems unlikley whatever happens in June:
http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/what-would-brexit-mean-for-immigration/
Original post by paul514
Theere's a man who knows he's lost the argument.
He didn't go off topic at all, he explained as I have that less immigration does not equal higher wages as there are many other reasons except immigration for why wages are low.
They took our jerbs!
Original post by Bornblue
FInally the fact that in places like Norfolk where there is virtually no immigration, that wages are not higher proves you wrong. If you were right, wages in areas with no immigration would be higher. Yet the Mcdonalds there pays the same as it does everywhere else.
FInally the fact that in places like Norfolk where there is virtually no immigration, that wages are not higher proves you wrong. If you were right, wages in areas with no immigration would be higher. Yet the Mcdonalds there pays the same as it does everywhere else.
Excellent point. In fact, the reverse is true. E.G London Living Wage!
Economics is far more naunced, complex and varied than a simple equation which can be applied to all circumstances.
The problem is Capitalist economics is being touted as a science, when it plainly isnt.
No one complains about high skilled immigration, we can officially debunk that.
The concern for immigration mostly arises from cultural differences and the Economic prospects of native working class Britain's.
It is not racist to want higher standards of English for new immigrants to be accepted into the country nor is not wanting people from different cultures who are not willing to integrate with ours e.g. Many Eastern Europeans.
As for the economic argument, a lot of working class professions would have had massive increases in their value ( measured via wages) were it not for the 2004 expansion of the EU.
The concern for immigration mostly arises from cultural differences and the Economic prospects of native working class Britain's.
It is not racist to want higher standards of English for new immigrants to be accepted into the country nor is not wanting people from different cultures who are not willing to integrate with ours e.g. Many Eastern Europeans.
As for the economic argument, a lot of working class professions would have had massive increases in their value ( measured via wages) were it not for the 2004 expansion of the EU.
Original post by thunder_chunky
They took our jerbs!
Some people say that immigrants are more qualified therefore, they take the jobs, while a lot of British people who claim benefits complain about this.
Original post by Davij038
The problem is Capitalist economics is being touted as a science, when it plainly isnt.
The problem is Capitalist economics is being touted as a science, when it plainly isnt.
I've been making that point for years.
There are general rules like supply and demand, but tha's all they are, general. There are so many other human and practical factors which people don't factor in.
I kind of agree with Corbyn that the best idea would be a mandatory EU living wage. Which would help solve low pay and curb immigration.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by mojojojo101
Funny how people always seem to blame other poor people for their own poverty, rather than those who stockpile wealth and property to a degree far beyond what they could ever hope to spend in a dozen lifetimes, let alone one.
That is the way it has always been. Many poor people feel that other poor people are the reason that they are poor, if not, then those flipping immigrants from poor countries.
Few realize that the rich corporations have deliberately done this to maintain low wages. They either pay low wages in the UK or move the jobs abroad. Sadly, gullible voters believe the BS and lies.
Firsty, corporations do not exploit people, they pay the wage that people are willing to accept. Secondly the wage rate in regions is determined by the demand for such labour, and ultimately the supply of labour.
Immigration of low skilled workers decreases or keeps the current wage rate of such occupations stagnant. The London living wage has only come about because of excessive inflation/costs caused by huge flows of capital and rich folk buying land/property and high immigration. it's a political decision and has nothing to do with supply or demand of labour, however that has been the cause of it being brought about.
In regional terms, the higher the supply of labour as opposed to demand sets the wage rate, companies simply pay what people will take. People will take this lower wage(ie migrants or british people) because there's a substantial imbalance in the labour market, where the labour market increases in size, people have less options jobs wise and less opportunities for employment, so they are forced to accept the lower wage rate. The more people you have in a certain area, the cheaper production/labour costs are as there's more people to do the job. Look at countries with high populations such as China, China may be becoming very wealthy, but the people aren't as wealthy to represent that, hence why children never see their parent's as they move to cities to work all the time.
I do dislike the attitude of the middle and upper classes in this country that unemployed people are lazy, most unemployed people would like to have a job and be able to support their families respectively. And the whole attitude of a non English person shouldn't be able to take your job, because even skilled jobs especially in the building trade you can get by on knowing sod all English.
I'm not going to even go into the whole capitalism vs socialism thing as capitalism is the best economical system in the world. Remember Karl marx was funded and basically lived of his friend Engles whose father was a factory owner..... Essentially you could argue Marx lived of the "exploitation" of others.
As for it being a lack of education, if everyone was more educated you would find smart people being forced to accept lower/less skilled jobs not suited to their potential and would drive down wages of the middle/middle upper class. The richest people in this country will still become richer, inequality would only close between middle and lower class. Look at the earnings of the past 30 years of each percentile, the poorest are no better off than they were 30 years ago. A combination of high migration leading to stagnant and higher competition for jobs has caused this, you don't have the middle/middle upperclass or upper class worrying about jobs, because quite simply, the supply of labour for their jobs vs demand hasn't increased substantially. Not all people are intelligent, that's partially a good thing if you are intelligent as it means less people can do your job and as such you can demand a higher pay packet. I wish people would honestly have more patriotism in this country for the sake of British people that aren't born intelligent/able bodied.
Immigrants are the primary cause of these labour market shocks supply wise, the government is to blame however, but the government has no interest in reducing immigration, even if it means the poorest britains will become better off, or the middle class becoming better off because it reduces labour costs and as such costs to running business and government expenditure. Immigration is simply a massive supply side policy. It also helps increase demand for housing, which essentially makes people capital worth more, especially the rich and powerful, they have no interest in the British people but only an interest in their own wealth. Labour won't help the poorest either, since they're a huge fan of mass immigration because it ultimately means more poor people to vote for them, even if they helped cause the housing crises, they can use it as an election promise, the Tories won't either, simply because it keeps costs down for most of their companies that pay them.
Immigration of low skilled workers decreases or keeps the current wage rate of such occupations stagnant. The London living wage has only come about because of excessive inflation/costs caused by huge flows of capital and rich folk buying land/property and high immigration. it's a political decision and has nothing to do with supply or demand of labour, however that has been the cause of it being brought about.
In regional terms, the higher the supply of labour as opposed to demand sets the wage rate, companies simply pay what people will take. People will take this lower wage(ie migrants or british people) because there's a substantial imbalance in the labour market, where the labour market increases in size, people have less options jobs wise and less opportunities for employment, so they are forced to accept the lower wage rate. The more people you have in a certain area, the cheaper production/labour costs are as there's more people to do the job. Look at countries with high populations such as China, China may be becoming very wealthy, but the people aren't as wealthy to represent that, hence why children never see their parent's as they move to cities to work all the time.
I do dislike the attitude of the middle and upper classes in this country that unemployed people are lazy, most unemployed people would like to have a job and be able to support their families respectively. And the whole attitude of a non English person shouldn't be able to take your job, because even skilled jobs especially in the building trade you can get by on knowing sod all English.
I'm not going to even go into the whole capitalism vs socialism thing as capitalism is the best economical system in the world. Remember Karl marx was funded and basically lived of his friend Engles whose father was a factory owner..... Essentially you could argue Marx lived of the "exploitation" of others.
As for it being a lack of education, if everyone was more educated you would find smart people being forced to accept lower/less skilled jobs not suited to their potential and would drive down wages of the middle/middle upper class. The richest people in this country will still become richer, inequality would only close between middle and lower class. Look at the earnings of the past 30 years of each percentile, the poorest are no better off than they were 30 years ago. A combination of high migration leading to stagnant and higher competition for jobs has caused this, you don't have the middle/middle upperclass or upper class worrying about jobs, because quite simply, the supply of labour for their jobs vs demand hasn't increased substantially. Not all people are intelligent, that's partially a good thing if you are intelligent as it means less people can do your job and as such you can demand a higher pay packet. I wish people would honestly have more patriotism in this country for the sake of British people that aren't born intelligent/able bodied.
Immigrants are the primary cause of these labour market shocks supply wise, the government is to blame however, but the government has no interest in reducing immigration, even if it means the poorest britains will become better off, or the middle class becoming better off because it reduces labour costs and as such costs to running business and government expenditure. Immigration is simply a massive supply side policy. It also helps increase demand for housing, which essentially makes people capital worth more, especially the rich and powerful, they have no interest in the British people but only an interest in their own wealth. Labour won't help the poorest either, since they're a huge fan of mass immigration because it ultimately means more poor people to vote for them, even if they helped cause the housing crises, they can use it as an election promise, the Tories won't either, simply because it keeps costs down for most of their companies that pay them.
Original post by Wired_1800
That is the way it has always been. Many poor people feel that other poor people are the reason that they are poor, if not, then those flipping immigrants from poor countries.
Few realize that the rich corporations have deliberately done this to maintain low wages. They either pay low wages in the UK or move the jobs abroad. Sadly, gullible voters believe the BS and lies.
Few realize that the rich corporations have deliberately done this to maintain low wages. They either pay low wages in the UK or move the jobs abroad. Sadly, gullible voters believe the BS and lies.
But there in lies the success of right wing parties like the tories and their media buddies. They succesfully manage to persuade poor people to blame other poor people, immigrants and public sectr workers rather than look upwards and blame the government.
http://www.poverty.org.uk/09/index.shtml
Shows the gap between middle and lower income workers increasing over recent years. and the middle and upper class.
Shows the gap between middle and lower income workers increasing over recent years. and the middle and upper class.
Original post by Bornblue
But there in lies the success of right wing parties like the tories and their media buddies. They succesfully manage to persuade poor people to blame other poor people, immigrants and public sectr workers rather than look upwards and blame the government.
Left wing governments are no less to blame.
Original post by Conservationofmass
Left wing governments are no less to blame.
Perhaps so. But left wing governments don't tend to tell people to turn on each other, blaming the poor, disabled, immigrants and public sector worker for their ills.
Original post by kabbage
I've seen a lot of posts about how immigrants are taking our jobs and how the British end up unemployed. This is wrong on so many levels mostly because people refuse to look on both sides of the argument.
It's clear that these jobs are always on low pay jobs that don't require a qualification. I haven't seen an immigrant with a medical degree ever come from another country and become a doctor in a British hospital. I have friends who moved here and who's parents have qualifications, however find it very difficult to get a job in their field and end up taking low paid jobs.
The jobs that these immigrants are taking are low paid jobs, so the problem isn't the immigrants, it's the lack of education in this country.
Additionally, immigrants tend to make jobs. One of my friends immigrated here and set up a business which ended up employing hundreds of people. Immigrants can be job creators.
It's clear that these jobs are always on low pay jobs that don't require a qualification. I haven't seen an immigrant with a medical degree ever come from another country and become a doctor in a British hospital. I have friends who moved here and who's parents have qualifications, however find it very difficult to get a job in their field and end up taking low paid jobs.
The jobs that these immigrants are taking are low paid jobs, so the problem isn't the immigrants, it's the lack of education in this country.
Additionally, immigrants tend to make jobs. One of my friends immigrated here and set up a business which ended up employing hundreds of people. Immigrants can be job creators.
36% of the Drs in the NHS are non UK 22.5% of nurses as well. It couldnt function with foreign workers.
Original post by Bornblue
Perhaps so. But left wing governments don't tend to tell people to turn on each other, blaming the poor, disabled, immigrants and public sector worker for their ills.
But they cause the issues that leads people to turn on each other, so they're still to blame
Original post by 999tigger
36% of the Drs in the NHS are non UK 22.5% of nurses as well. It couldnt function with foreign workers.
It could but the standards in this country to become a doctor would have to decrease, perhaps more subsidies to encourage people into the profession, and a certain amount of time they have to work in the UK. Though just paying them more would probably attract more people.
I mean you need like all A stats to study it at uni so it's understandable why we'd have to import some skilled labour.
Original post by Conservationofmass
But they cause the issues that leads people to turn on each other, so they're still to blame
No.
Poverty, crumbling public services and inequality are caused largely by small staate right wing, neoliberal governments.
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