Project fantasy: the Boris nonsense

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typonaut
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Boris Johnson says that Barak Obama is a hypocrite because the USA would never share sovereignty with another country. At the same time the OUTers are claiming that we would "just negotiate a free trade deal with the USA (on our terms)".

The splinter of logic leveraging these two positions apart is that if the USA is such an immovable force, how is it that the UK is going to bully it into accepting a trade deal on the UK's terms. Likewise with China.
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gladders
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Also: it doesn't matter what the USA would do/think about their own use of their sovereignty. They are in a different position from us right now. They might change their tune if they were smaller and less self-sufficient than they are. They might change their tune in fifty years.

It's a complete nonsense argument to say 'If it's good enough for the ol' US of A then hot diggety damn it's good enough for me.'
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Davij038
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Dan hodges has come out with some brilliant lines on this-

''Part Kenyan president' more deft diplomacy from the OUT Campaign'

And

Brexiters: we want to engage and have trade deals with the wider world!
Wider world: you should stay in the EU
Brexiters: **** up its nothing to do with you, you hate our country.




There is xn argument to leaving the EU
But it's not one that the out campaign is making and they are now tightly coming across as complete lunatics. And this lunacy is contagious. It's making otherwise intelligent people go yes, we should leave the single market because...driverless cars. Long years of anti EU propaganda about lies like EU coffin regulation etc has caused some trigger effect of mass retardation to occur,
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gladders
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(Original post by Davij038)
Brexiters: we want to engage and have trade deals with the wider world!
Wider world: you should stay in the EU
Brexiters: **** up its nothing to do with you, you hate our country.
This sums it up exquisitely.
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Davij038
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http://www.conservativehome.com/plat...eferendum.html

Actually quite encouraging reading this, to me. Although apparently one person is voting out purely because her daughter didn't get the school she wanted...
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ChaoticButterfly
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(Original post by Davij038)
Brexiters: we want to engage and have trade deals with the wider world!
Wider world: you should stay in the EU
Brexiters: **** up its nothing to do with you, you hate our country.
USA can say that without having our interests at heart.
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Davij038
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(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
USA can say that without having our interests at heart.
Define interests


As their biggest ally it is certain that our well being and survival is second only to their own.
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ChaoticButterfly
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(Original post by Davij038)
Define interests


As their biggest ally it is certain that our well being and survival is second only to their own.
American interests can certainly align with ours sure, but when they don't don't expect me to believe the American state has become an internationalist facing entity.

Well you and other vaguely left commentators being saying the same when Obama tell sure how great TTIP is? "Trade deals" like TTIP are why America likes the EU.
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username2228735
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(Original post by Davij038)
As their biggest ally it is certain that our well being and survival is second only to their own.
This is true to a certain extent but we really need to see the political landscape in America to see why Obama is worried: The Anglo-American bilateral trade deal is the largest in the world and a 'Brexit' could mean uncertainty about the terms (currently in favour of the U.K., in my opinion). Secondly, there seems to be a fear that a 'Brexit' may lead to a rapprochement with China and perhaps Russia (citizens of which have significant interests in British corporations).

Point being, that as much Obama may come off as being 'genuinely concerned' about Britain, his interests are to his own nation first. The U.K. remains one of the U.S.'s main trading partners and instability in that relationship is a scary thought for an America that is seeing its global importance diminish.
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Davij038
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(Original post by Aceadria)
This is true to a certain extent but we really need to see the political landscape in America to see why Obama is worried: The Anglo-American bilateral trade deal is the largest in the world and a 'Brexit' could mean uncertainty about the terms (currently in favour of the U.K., in my opinion). Secondly, there seems to be a fear that a 'Brexit' may lead to a rapprochement with China and perhaps Russia (citizens of which have significant interests in British corporations).

Point being, that as much Obama may come off as being 'genuinely concerned' about Britain, his interests are to his own nation first. The U.K. remains one of the U.S.'s main trading partners and instability in that relationship is a scary thought for an America that is seeing its global importance diminish.
There is some truth to this. Though, I think the best way of responding to this is that the UK has far closer ties, values and objectives with say the US and Commonwealth than with China. Therefore, I think I am right in saying that Obama is genuinley concerned as he thinks Britain will be better off remaining in that direction for mutual benefit.
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Davij038
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(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
American interests can certainly align with ours sure, but when they don't don't expect me to believe the American state has become an internationalist facing entity
yes and no. See my response to aceadria


Well you and other vaguely left commentators being saying the same when Obama tell sure how great TTIP is? "Trade deals" like TTIP are why America likes the EU.
It's one reason why the us likes the EU (and as tip hasn't even come about yet it's not a very plausible reason. As you yourself said, the UK out of the EU with Boris as PM is more likely to get worst case t t I p than in the EU.


Personally, I've yet to be fully convinced that t t I p is as bad as it's made out to be. Sure I'm certain particular elites would love to sell of the NHS etc, I don't think they'd be that stupid to allow it to happen ,I've that though. If t tip was as bad as it has been made out to be, the EU wouldn't survive a week if say frech owned companies were bought out by Americans and the NHS was sold .
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typonaut
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(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
Well you and other vaguely left commentators being saying the same when Obama tell sure how great TTIP is? "Trade deals" like TTIP are why America likes the EU.
TTIP is speculation at the moment, we'll have to see what materialises from it.
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