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Why I will vote to Leave the EU - From an alternative viewpoint watch

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    Since there are a lot of debate on the referendum (as the referendum date is getting nearer), I would like to offer my side of the argument - perhaps from a different viewpoint to most of you. I have included some important statistics in bold for easy reading because this thread is getting quite long as I type it.

    Firstly let me introduce myself and my background. My family emigrated from Hong Kong in 2003 when I was 9 years old under the British Nationality Selection Scheme. I am now studying at University and intend to stay in the UK in the future along with most of my family.

    The greatest problem to me is not an economic one, but its fundamental structure and its level of influence on its member states. The European Parliament consists of 751 members, of which 73 of them represents the UK. Considering UK's population of about 64m, this gives a population per MEP of 875,289. This places the UK with the 2nd highest population per MEP figure, meaning most countries have a higher representative in the EU when considering their populations. This is against the fundamental principle of Democracy, every person's vote should be the same and wield the same amount of power. My concern is that - how can we rely on the EU to represent our interests, when we are under-represented and only account to roughly 10% of the votes?

    Economically I believe the EU is beneficial to the UK, but our deals and treaties with them can be arranged with their member states externally - like Norway and Switzerland. About 44% of UK export goes to the EU and 8% of EU export comes to the UK. This means we export £226.7b to the EU and the EU export £288.3b to the UK. On a purely numerical basis, the EU needs the UK for export more than the UK needs them. This high level of export would also ensure that EU businesses will put pressure on EU states to form trade agreements with the UK. With this theory in mind, I believe the UK should have no problem with negotiating its deals with EU countries, considering smaller economies like Norway were able to do so. Also if we choose to leave the EU, the process will be gradual and stretched out to allow time for legislation (as confirmed by the government). We should have plenty of time to replace existing trade treaties, and if in doubt we can always reference off Norway and Switzerland to save legislative work. One further suggestion is that we can allocate the £8.5b net annual membership fees to offer as grants to help businesses with the transition.

    Unlike some Leave campaigners I actually have no issue with immigration. I believe the EU has been responsible in its immigration policy in general and I think that the UK will continue this if we end up leaving the Union and decide our own policy. If not I am confident that the government will consult the public on what is best for the country. I also disagree with some Leave campaigners on foreign labour policy. I think being an internationalised developed economy, it is important to our market dynamics to have the best labours in the World, albeit from other countries. This keeps us competitive and cost effective.

    As a child living and Hong Kong and now as an adult in the UK, I have been closely monitoring the progress of democracy in Hong Kong. I realised the importance of freedom and democracy, and the struggle many people had to suffer to obtain it. I am alarmed that the EU will continue to become federalised and we will reach a point of no return, when we can no longer maintain our laws and defend our ideals which the British people have fought so hard to obtain for centuries. I am not optimistic that reforms will be made in the EU if we choose to remain and subject ourselves to this continuous trend of federalisation.

    I think I have covered most of my viewpoints. Thanks for reading and I hope that you can sympathise with my concerns. Feel free to respond and I will try my best to answer.


    Edit: This thread was started because I felt it would be a good contribution to the debate to add my point of view on the referendum, and to see if some people can relate to my less-mainstream background. There are some replies I have received which I found helpful, and adds insight and understanding to both sides of the debate. However some members of this forum have demonstrated an inability to convey their views in a respectful manner. As such I have no further interest to reply to them, as they have no interest in the respectful spirit of debating. I urge you to not satisfy their needs to vent out their aggression in a political forum section.

    I hope this thread has been a good demonstration of some of the views both sides hold, and adds some mutual understanding in what forms our decision on the referendum.
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    Since there are a lot of debate on the referendum (as the referendum date is getting nearer), I would like to offer my side of the argument - perhaps from a different viewpoint to most of you. I have included some important statistics in bold for easy reading because this thread is getting quite long as I type it.

    Firstly let me introduce myself and my background. My family emigrated from Hong Kong in 2003 when I was 9 years old under the British Nationality Selection Scheme. I am now studying at University and intend to stay in the UK in the future along with most of my family.

    The greatest problem to me is not an economic one, but its fundamental structure and its level of influence on its member states. The European Parliament consists of 751 members, of which 73 of them represents the UK. Considering UK's population of about 64m, this gives a population per MEP of 875,289. This places the UK with the 2nd highest population per MEP figure, meaning most countries have a higher representative in the EU when considering their populations. This is against the fundamental principle of Democracy, every person's vote should be the same and wield the same amount of power. My concern is that - how can we rely on the EU to represent our interests, when we are under-represented and only account to roughly 10% of the votes?

    Economically I believe the EU is beneficial to the UK, but our deals and treaties with them can be arranged with their member states externally - like Norway and Switzerland. About 44% of UK export goes to the EU and 8% of EU export comes to the UK. This means we export £226.7b to the EU and the EU export £288.3b to the UK. On a purely numerical basis, the EU needs the UK for trade more than the UK needs them. With this theory in mind, I believe the UK should have no problem with negotiating its deals with EU countries, considering smaller economies like Norway were able to do so. Also if we choose to leave the EU, the process will be gradual and stretched out to allow time for legislation (as confirmed by the government). We should have plenty of time to replace existing trade treaties, and if in doubt we can always reference off Norway and Switzerland to save legislative work. One further suggestion is that we can allocate the £8.5b net annual membership fees to offer as grants to help businesses with the transition.

    Unlike some Leave campaigners I actually have no issue with immigration. I believe the EU has been responsible in its immigration policy in general and I think that the UK will continue this if we end up leaving the Union and decide our own policy. If not I am confident that the government will consult the public on what is best for the country. I also disagree with some Leave campaigners on foreign labour policy. I think being an internationalised developed economy, it is important to our market dynamics to have the best labours in the World, albeit from other countries. This keeps us competitive and cost effective.

    As a child living and Hong Kong and now as an adult in the UK, I have been closely motoring the progress of democracy in Hong Kong. I realised the importance of freedom and democracy, and the struggle many people had to suffer to obtain it. I am alarmed that the EU will continue to become federalised and we will reach a point of no return, when we can no longer maintain our laws and defend our ideals which the British people have fought so hard to obtain for centuries. I am not optimistic that reforms will be made in the EU if we choose to remain and subject ourselves to this continuous trend of federalisation.

    I think I have covered most of my viewpoints. Thanks for reading and I hope that you can sympathise with my concerns. Feel free to respond and I will try my best to answer.

    Agree completely with you. A vote to remain in is a vote to give away our democracy which is madness.

    A vote to remain will also guarantee no reform in the EU as it will be seen as a vote of confidence in them. I doubt, like yourself, that there is any chance of them reforming anyway.
    The argument should be on democracy not immigration as you stated.
    You have to understand that those like the BBC that are desperate for us to remain in, want the debate to be on immigration as it is easier to defend poor people coming here for a. Better life than arguing why it is a good idea to give away our democracy. They and the politicians love the immigration debate as it diverts from what we should be discussing..our democracy.
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    Since there are a lot of debate on the referendum (as the referendum date is getting nearer), I would like to offer my side of the argument - perhaps from a different viewpoint to most of you. I have included some important statistics in bold for easy reading because this thread is getting quite long as I type it.

    Firstly let me introduce myself and my background. My family emigrated from Hong Kong in 2003 when I was 9 years old under the British Nationality Selection Scheme. I am now studying at University and intend to stay in the UK in the future along with most of my family.

    The greatest problem to me is not an economic one, but its fundamental structure and its level of influence on its member states. The European Parliament consists of 751 members, of which 73 of them represents the UK. Considering UK's population of about 64m, this gives a population per MEP of 875,289. This places the UK with the 2nd highest population per MEP figure, meaning most countries have a higher representative in the EU when considering their populations. This is against the fundamental principle of Democracy, every person's vote should be the same and wield the same amount of power. My concern is that - how can we rely on the EU to represent our interests, when we are under-represented and only account to roughly 10% of the votes?

    Economically I believe the EU is beneficial to the UK, but our deals and treaties with them can be arranged with their member states externally - like Norway and Switzerland. About 44% of UK export goes to the EU and 8% of EU export comes to the UK. This means we export £226.7b to the EU and the EU export £288.3b to the UK. On a purely numerical basis, the EU needs the UK for trade more than the UK needs them. With this theory in mind, I believe the UK should have no problem with negotiating its deals with EU countries, considering smaller economies like Norway were able to do so. Also if we choose to leave the EU, the process will be gradual and stretched out to allow time for legislation (as confirmed by the government). We should have plenty of time to replace existing trade treaties, and if in doubt we can always reference off Norway and Switzerland to save legislative work. One further suggestion is that we can allocate the £8.5b net annual membership fees to offer as grants to help businesses with the transition.

    Unlike some Leave campaigners I actually have no issue with immigration. I believe the EU has been responsible in its immigration policy in general and I think that the UK will continue this if we end up leaving the Union and decide our own policy. If not I am confident that the government will consult the public on what is best for the country. I also disagree with some Leave campaigners on foreign labour policy. I think being an internationalised developed economy, it is important to our market dynamics to have the best labours in the World, albeit from other countries. This keeps us competitive and cost effective.

    As a child living and Hong Kong and now as an adult in the UK, I have been closely motoring the progress of democracy in Hong Kong. I realised the importance of freedom and democracy, and the struggle many people had to suffer to obtain it. I am alarmed that the EU will continue to become federalised and we will reach a point of no return, when we can no longer maintain our laws and defend our ideals which the British people have fought so hard to obtain for centuries. I am not optimistic that reforms will be made in the EU if we choose to remain and subject ourselves to this continuous trend of federalisation.

    I think I have covered most of my viewpoints. Thanks for reading and I hope that you can sympathise with my concerns. Feel free to respond and I will try my best to answer.
    Hear, hear.
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    Since there are a lot of debate on the referendum (as the referendum date is getting nearer), I would like to offer my side of the argument - perhaps from a different viewpoint to most of you. I have included some important statistics in bold for easy reading because this thread is getting quite long as I type it.

    Firstly let me introduce myself and my background. My family emigrated from Hong Kong in 2003 when I was 9 years old under the British Nationality Selection Scheme. I am now studying at University and intend to stay in the UK in the future along with most of my family.

    The greatest problem to me is not an economic one, but its fundamental structure and its level of influence on its member states. The European Parliament consists of 751 members, of which 73 of them represents the UK. Considering UK's population of about 64m, this gives a population per MEP of 875,289. This places the UK with the 2nd highest population per MEP figure, meaning most countries have a higher representative in the EU when considering their populations. This is against the fundamental principle of Democracy, every person's vote should be the same and wield the same amount of power. My concern is that - how can we rely on the EU to represent our interests, when we are under-represented and only account to roughly 10% of the votes?

    Economically I believe the EU is beneficial to the UK, but our deals and treaties with them can be arranged with their member states externally - like Norway and Switzerland. About 44% of UK export goes to the EU and 8% of EU export comes to the UK. This means we export £226.7b to the EU and the EU export £288.3b to the UK. On a purely numerical basis, the EU needs the UK for trade more than the UK needs them. With this theory in mind, I believe the UK should have no problem with negotiating its deals with EU countries, considering smaller economies like Norway were able to do so. Also if we choose to leave the EU, the process will be gradual and stretched out to allow time for legislation (as confirmed by the government). We should have plenty of time to replace existing trade treaties, and if in doubt we can always reference off Norway and Switzerland to save legislative work. One further suggestion is that we can allocate the £8.5b net annual membership fees to offer as grants to help businesses with the transition.

    Unlike some Leave campaigners I actually have no issue with immigration. I believe the EU has been responsible in its immigration policy in general and I think that the UK will continue this if we end up leaving the Union and decide our own policy. If not I am confident that the government will consult the public on what is best for the country. I also disagree with some Leave campaigners on foreign labour policy. I think being an internationalised developed economy, it is important to our market dynamics to have the best labours in the World, albeit from other countries. This keeps us competitive and cost effective.

    As a child living and Hong Kong and now as an adult in the UK, I have been closely motoring the progress of democracy in Hong Kong. I realised the importance of freedom and democracy, and the struggle many people had to suffer to obtain it. I am alarmed that the EU will continue to become federalised and we will reach a point of no return, when we can no longer maintain our laws and defend our ideals which the British people have fought so hard to obtain for centuries. I am not optimistic that reforms will be made in the EU if we choose to remain and subject ourselves to this continuous trend of federalisation.

    I think I have covered most of my viewpoints. Thanks for reading and I hope that you can sympathise with my concerns. Feel free to respond and I will try my best to answer.
    None of this is remotely original, you should be done for plagiarism.
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    I wouldn't presume to tell you how to vote, but vis-a-vis the points you made:

    1. The European Parliament has limited power in truth, and MEPs are divided by political views rather than nationality, so even if the UK had a better population to MEP account this would change little.

    To have an issue with EU's democratic deficit as a whole is one thing, but the MEP to population ratio seems an incredibly marginal issue on which to make a decision.

    2. No-one knows what the UK's trade deal with the EU will look like if we leave, but the strength of our trade with the EU relies on our presence to the single market. Any and all changes to this agreement will necessitate some kind of hit to trade. The freedom we obtain from EU regulations will have a proportionate impact on trade. The fewer EU regulations we abide with, the more trade will suffer.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    None of this is remotely original, you should be done for plagiarism.
    I can guarantee you this is my own original thread. What makes you think this is copied?
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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    I wouldn't presume to tell you how to vote, but vis-a-vis the points you made:

    1. The European Parliament has limited power in truth, and MEPs are divided by political views rather than nationality, so even if the UK had a better population to MEP account this would change little.

    To have an issue with EU's democratic deficit as a whole is one thing, but the MEP to population ratio seems an incredibly marginal issue on which to make a decision.

    2. No-one knows what the UK's trade deal with the EU will look like if we leave, but the strength of our trade with the EU relies on our presence to the single market. Any and all changes to this agreement will necessitate some kind of hit to trade. The freedom we obtain from EU regulations will have a proportionate impact on trade. The fewer EU regulations we abide with, the more trade will suffer.
    Thanks for the reply.

    1. I understand your point however the major problem is how much influence can a 10% voting power make on major decisions, and whether those decisions will suit our interests. To me an ideal EU is one which does not force any of its states to accept any laws which are against the will of its electorates. We can achieve greater co-operation by arranging individual policies towards other countries. A one-size-fits-all model seems inflexible and can often be unrepresentative to the will of the country.

    2. Again I accept the points you made, I too believe there will be some negative effects to our trade in the short term. However I believe the UK leaving the EU will be a symbolic event to the EU, with more countries considering the same option and thus will demand change from the EU. This will force the EU to be more accepting of non-EU trade. I believe that in the long term the EU and UK will both become a better place to trade, with less bureaucracy and countries can have their own policies which suits their economic model.
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    The greatest problem to me is not an economic one, but its fundamental structure and its level of influence on its member states. The European Parliament consists of 751 members, of which 73 of them represents the UK. Considering UK's population of about 64m, this gives a population per MEP of 875,289. This places the UK with the 2nd highest population per MEP figure, meaning most countries have a higher representative in the EU when considering their populations. This is against the fundamental principle of Democracy, every person's vote should be the same and wield the same amount of power. My concern is that - how can we rely on the EU to represent our interests, when we are under-represented and only account to roughly 10% of the votes?
    Because, unlike citizens of a democratic country, we can simply opt out of the EU if they choose not to represent our interests. "They possibly might go against our interests at some point in the future" isn't a reason to leave an organisation that's so far represented our interests extremely well.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Because, unlike citizens of a democratic country, we can simply opt out of the EU if they choose not to represent our interests. "They possibly might go against our interests at some point in the future" isn't a reason to leave an organisation that's so far represented our interests extremely well.
    On the basis of representation, isn't it better for UK to represent itself rather than relying on a leveraged representation of just 10% voting power?

    Some may say the EU has represented us extremely well (although I do dispute this), however do we know whether its direction will change in the future?

    Will it be far too late and far more damaging to us if we continue to accept federalisation, and try to leave the Union in the future?
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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    I wouldn't presume to tell you how to vote, but vis-a-vis the points you made:

    1. The European Parliament has limited power in truth, and MEPs are divided by political views rather than nationality, so even if the UK had a better population to MEP account this would change little.

    To have an issue with EU's democratic deficit as a whole is one thing, but the MEP to population ratio seems an incredibly marginal issue on which to make a decision.

    2. No-one knows what the UK's trade deal with the EU will look like if we leave, but the strength of our trade with the EU relies on our presence to the single market. Any and all changes to this agreement will necessitate some kind of hit to trade. The freedom we obtain from EU regulations will have a proportionate impact on trade. The fewer EU regulations we abide with, the more trade will suffer.
    Democracy is an incredibly marginal issue..you really believe that?
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    (Original post by Comedy_Gold)
    Democracy is an incredibly marginal issue..you really believe that?
    That wasn't my point.

    Democracy is a large issue, but the parliament is only a marginal part of this wider issue, owing to its limited power.

    The issues related to the power of the European Commission, and the supremacy of the ECJ over domestic legislation are of greater concern with regards to democracy.
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    1. The issue of how many boters per mep is all covered ubder the Lisbon treaty. Its a similar number for all the large EU nations. Not an importnat dealbreaker imo bevause I dont rate the European parliament.

    2. The issue of trade is a bit simplistic if you look at it simply in terms of how much we export to import. Leaving isnt automatically going to change that. People buy goods from abroad for a reason. You also need to consider what the overall volume of trade might be if we left, thats a more important issue.

    Not really convinced on either of your points OP.
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    I can guarantee you this is my own original thread. What makes you think this is copied?
    Because none of it is original, all your points have been bought up many times before.
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    Do you think the UK should make it harder to immigrants to take benefits? Now it is only four years but maybe add on the extra two? Or I hear things about immigrants taking Council Houses when a lot of people have been on the list for years- is it true? Apparently 1/8 of those in social housing is an immigrant
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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    1. The issue of how many boters per mep is all covered ubder the Lisbon treaty. Its a similar number for all the large EU nations. Not an importnat dealbreaker imo bevause I dont rate the European parliament.

    2. The issue of trade is a bit simplistic if you look at it simply in terms of how much we export to import. Leaving isnt automatically going to change that. People buy goods from abroad for a reason. You also need to consider what the overall volume of trade might be if we left, thats a more important issue.

    Not really convinced on either of your points OP.
    1. I have studied the Lisbon Treaty however I honestly feel that it is extremely unfair for the UK. They could have assigned a proportion voting power per country based on proportion of population, which can then be divided between the number of MEPs from the country. Given the size and complexity of the EU I don't think it is excusable for the Union to have such a flawed parliamentary model.

    2. It is true that nobody knows what will happen to our trades if we leave the EU. There are two major views and in my opinion the UK will become a better place to trade in the long term without having to comply with EU regulations which can often inhibit our economic growth and business performances. I believe once we are able to re-establish the trade treaties with European states, we will benefit hugely from the increased flexibility and policies which truly suits our economic model. This would happen within the transition period during which we would still effectively be in the EU. Another view is yours in which some businesses may leave the UK due to the risks involved, and to stay within the European Union. I respect your view as none of us are able to predict what businesses will do.

    Thanks for sharing your view.
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    Disagree they knew what they were doing at the time and accpeted it. By that i mean the big countruies accepted not having a proportionate vote. If it really mattered they wouldnt have agreed with it and tbh its very rarely heard as an argyment becayse people think the Euro parliament is so limited anyway.

    Hehe you are really polite, out of place on most forums. I think your economic analysis is a bit simple though.
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    (Original post by reinaadira)
    Do you think the UK should make it harder to immigrants to take benefits? Now it is only four years but maybe add on the extra two? Or I hear things about immigrants taking Council Houses when a lot of people have been on the list for years- is it true? Apparently 1/8 of those in social housing is an immigrant
    Personally I am not educated enough on the immigration issue to offer my version of its current state. However I would like to note that some immigrants are indeed a good contribution to our economy and many are willing to accept jobs which many British people refuse to take on. Should the UK leave the EU, I believe the government will establish laws which both prohibit abuse and support integration of immigrants, I for one will strongly support it. Right now the EU has limited our powers to have our own policies on these issues.
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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    Disagree they knew what they were doing at the time and accpeted it. By that i mean the big countruies accepted not having a proportionate vote. If it really mattered they wouldnt have agreed with it and tbh its very rarely heard as an argyment becayse people think the Euro parliament is so limited anyway.

    Hehe you are really polite, out of place on most forums. I think your economic analysis is a bit simple though.
    Thanks, I try to keep things mild so that everyone can offer their views without shouting at each other.

    I apologise I might be a little simplistic on the economic side, I don't want to get too in depth and fall foul of over-assuming because nobody really knows how businesses will react.
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    Thanks, I try to keep things mild so that everyone can offer their views without shouting at each other.

    I apologise I might be a little simplistic on the economic side, I don't want to get too in depth and fall foul of over-assuming because nobody really knows how businesses will react.
    Not trying to insult you and respect thats your view but am a bit more of a realist. Your politeness and the way you state your case is refreshing and does you credit, which is a compliment and not menat to be patronising.

    There is a big unknown, but they are likley to find it more expensive and difficult to cnduct trade becayse there will be a greater amount of checks and more regulations to comply with. Expense means less competitiveness. theres also a big chance a lot of business placed here might move to the continent to be within the EU.

    Personally I will be glad when its all over.

    ps assuming you are from HK presumably you are happy to be British chinese rather than Chinese?
 
 
 
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