Is denying Israels's right to exist anti-semitism?

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queenofswords
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Metalfros
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No. If it is, then denying the Palestinian state, which has been there hundreds of years before Israel was founded, is anti-islamic. If people can please stop bashing at each other and work towards a two state solution, which is the only solution in my opinion. Both the terrorists of Israel have to stop and the terrorists of Hamas.
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Redmonds
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No. Israel is not the same thing as Judaism. I don't call people 'Islamophobic for denying the sovereignty of Palestine. How about all the Jewish people that are campaigning against the actions of Israel and its expansion? DO we call them anti-semitic?
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Metalfros
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(Original post by Redmonds)
No. Israel is not the same thing as Judaism. I don't call people 'Islamophobic for denying the sovereignty of Palestine. How about all the Jewish people that are campaigning against the actions of Israel and it's expansion? DO we call them anti-semitic?
This guy... knows stuff!
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jambojim97
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No its anti-Zionism. Not all Jews are Zionists. In fact, as far as I'm aware, the majority of modern Jews are anti-Zionist.
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queen-bee
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(Original post by Redmonds)
No. Israel is not the same thing as Judaism. I don't call people 'Islamophobic for denying the sovereignty of Palestine. How about all the Jewish people that are campaigning against the actions of Israel and its expansion? DO we call them anti-semitic?
Good response!
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M14B
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(Original post by Metalfros)
No. If it is, then denying the Palestinian state, which has been there hundreds of years before Israel was founded, is anti-islamic. If people can please stop bashing at each other and work towards a two state solution, which is the only solution in my opinion. Both the terrorists of Israel have to stop and the terrorists of Hamas.
Well explained
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crimezonepeace22
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(Original post by Redmonds)
No. Israel is not the same thing as Judaism. I don't call people 'Islamophobic for denying the sovereignty of Palestine. How about all the Jewish people that are campaigning against the actions of Israel and its expansion? DO we call them anti-semitic?

Campaigning against actions of Israel and its expansion is different to campaigning AGAINST ITS EXISTENCE.
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Redmonds
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(Original post by crimezonepeace22)
Campaigning against actions of Israel and its expansion is different to campaigning AGAINST ITS EXISTENCE.
No, but Israel's enlargement takes land under Israeli jurisdiction. Perhaps we should say, they campaign against Israel becoming any larger and taking the whole of the old region of Palestine. There are also Jewish people who are anti zionist.
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FredOrJohn
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its anti-zionist - which i think is equally wrong. Its like saying that china should not exist or japan or france.
Its certainly not nice.
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anarchism101
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No, because no state has a "right to exist". There is no such right in international law. It has the right to sovereignty over its legal recognised territory and the right not to be aggressed upon by another state, yes - but those are rather different.
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crimezonepeace22
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The question really is - when does anti-zionism become anti-semitism?

No one denies that Israel's government policy is hugely flawed and often genocidal. But that's a completely different thing to saying ISRAEL HAS NO RIGHT TO EXIST. And I can personally see how that easily leads to into anti-semitic territory.

It easily leads into anti-semitic territory because the specific argument 'Israel has no right to exist' was used by Arab to wage indiscriminate attacks on Jewish people.



___

On the point raised by Metalfros : No. If it is, then denying the Palestinian state, which has been there hundreds of years before Israel was founded, is anti-islamic' -
-An analogy is only good if they have similar aspects.
-Denying the Israeli state is of particularly concern because this denial was the ROOT of the violence that Jews faced throughout the 20th century.
-I would even go so far as to say that I AGREE with you. Denial of the Palestinian state is anti-Arab. It is specifically this denial by the Israeli govt that allows them to implement apartheid policies against Arabs.
-Both people need to recognise that denial of each country's existence is FOUNDED on some faulty notion of race and religion and can be said to be anti-semitic/anti-arab.
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crimezonepeace22
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(Original post by anarchism101)
No, because no state has a "right to exist". There is no such right in international law. It has the right to sovereignty over its legal recognised territory and the right not to be aggressed upon by another state, yes - but those are rather different.

Is/ought fallacy. i'm not interested in arguing first principles. Get some nuance on the specifics of the issue Mr Armchair Philosopher
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TercioOfParma
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No, it is not antisemitism. However, I think as a state Israel has done more than enough to earn the right to exist.
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Redmonds
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(Original post by FredOrJohn)
its anti-zionist - which i think is equally wrong. Its like saying that china should not exist or japan or france.
Its certainly not nice.
That's not a very good comparison. The existence of France and China are hardly contested, whereas there are those who believe that Israel has no right to exist. Personally, I'm not anti zionist, I support a two state solution. What I do have a problem with is the illegal expansion of Israel into the West Bank and its abuse of human rights on Palestinian people. I am anti imperialist.
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Volvic Water
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No, many Orthodox Jews oppose the existence of Israel.
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Redmonds
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(Original post by Volvic Water)
No, many Orthodox Jews oppose the existence of Israel.
^^
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anarchism101
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(Original post by crimezonepeace22)
Is/ought fallacy. i'm not interested in arguing first principles. Get some nuance on the specifics of the issue Mr Armchair Philosopher
How am I making an is/ought fallacy here?
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FredOrJohn
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(Original post by Redmonds)
That's not a very good comparison. The existence of France and China are hardly contested, whereas there are those who believe that Israel has no right to exist. Personally, I'm not anti zionist, I support a two state solution. What I do have a problem with is the illegal expansion of Israel into the West Bank and its abuse of human rights on Palestinian people. I am anti imperialist.
Yes but we don't live next to people who want to destroy you. Would you want to live in a small isolated country in the middle east that was not muslim that everyone else around hated?

If you go back to the 1940s, I too would want out of "white euro" lands and find somewhere else. It was the muslim population back then that rejected mass immigration into their lands and indeed rose up against the jewish immigrants.
Israel came into existence as a result of a breakdown in relations.

There is no way to wind back the clock.

I have NO ANSWER - but being anti-Zionist does not help.
I have zero idea of what I would do, I feel sorry for the Israelis I really do.

They are against a rock and a hard place. Everyone appears to hate them.

I don't; I really wish them well.

Perhaps if the Muslim religion was more lovey dovey the world would be a much nicer and richer place for all to share. Perhaps I would buy a house in Bagdad and watch it rise in value. But alas, the world is not like that.
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crimezonepeace22
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(Original post by anarchism101)
How am I making an is/ought fallacy here?
You're resorting to what the law says in order to answer what is clearly a political question.

In any case, international law is the most elusive thing to exist.

I say that as a lawyer, and a Muslim.
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