Does anyone get sick of hearing about Hillsborough?
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Original post by Dodgypirate
OK, so when you "accidently" mow down someone in the road because your driving was erratic, but you didn't set out to kill someone with your car... is that an "accident".
The police didn't initially think that let those 2000 odd more supporters in would cause a crush and result in 96 deaths, but they let it happen. I watched the documentary, and the police chief in charge soon knew he had made a judgement mistake.
I don't even think you've taken the time to watch anything about Hillsborough, how can one me so ignorant.
The police didn't initially think that let those 2000 odd more supporters in would cause a crush and result in 96 deaths, but they let it happen. I watched the documentary, and the police chief in charge soon knew he had made a judgement mistake.
I don't even think you've taken the time to watch anything about Hillsborough, how can one me so ignorant.
While this is all true, it was also all identified by the Taylor Report back in 1992, and stadium design and police practices were changed so that this hasn't happened again. So what is this about?
What the Hillsborough people have been campaigning for is not recognition of police culpability but for the police to be punished criminally for mistakes that were neither deliberate nor necessarily unreasonable, and for all culpability of their own people, however minor, to be expunged from the record.
And after such concessions are duly bludgeoned out of the system politically, the first headlines I read are "Apology sounded rehearsed" and "I do not accept your apology". What they want is indefinitely more grovelling for what ultimately was an accident. It is hooligan mentality applied to a political cause.
Original post by Observatory
While this is all true, it was also all identified by the Taylor Report back in 1992, and stadium design and police practices were changed so that this hasn't happened again. So what is this about?
What the Hillsborough people have been campaigning for is not recognition of police culpability but for the police to be punished criminally for mistakes that were neither deliberate nor necessarily unreasonable, and for all culpability of their own people, however minor, to be expunged from the record.
And after such concessions are duly bludgeoned out of the system politically, the first headlines I read are "Apology sounded rehearsed" and "I do not accept your apology". What they want is indefinitely more grovelling for what ultimately was an accident. It is hooligan mentality applied to a political cause.
What the Hillsborough people have been campaigning for is not recognition of police culpability but for the police to be punished criminally for mistakes that were neither deliberate nor necessarily unreasonable, and for all culpability of their own people, however minor, to be expunged from the record.
And after such concessions are duly bludgeoned out of the system politically, the first headlines I read are "Apology sounded rehearsed" and "I do not accept your apology". What they want is indefinitely more grovelling for what ultimately was an accident. It is hooligan mentality applied to a political cause.
Well to be honest, the apology didn't feel heartfelt at all. The police are yet to take responsibility after 27 years, even after yesterday's verdict. it's awful.
Original post by Good bloke
Unfortunately, you can imagine him on the pitch at Hillsborough insisting those who had escaped the crush went back behind the barrier and joined the back of the queue for treatment.
I know he's not old enough, but yeah, if he was there he'd probably one of those two mugs who took 6 minutes to get a stretcher.
Original post by swagyolo420
Don't really understand how it was unlawful? Did the police force all these people to turn up? And did they force them into an overcrowded stadium? The whole thing was tragic but it was an accident. The police and stadium authorities didn't kill those people on purpose
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No they didn't force people to attend but the authorities had a duty of care to fans. It was a police officer who gave the order to open another gate into the stadium (without alerting other officers that he was doing so, meaning that the tunnel wasn't closed off), allowing crowds of people to surge into tightly enclosed pens which were already full, and it was the fault of the police and the people in charge that there were no attendants to direct those crowds into pens with more space. It was the fault of the attendants in charge that they could see people being crushed and did nothing about it, it was the fault of the police that they prevented people from escaping onto the pitch and forcefully restrained injured people trying to get to waiting ambulances. And it is their fault that the families and friends of these people have suffered for decades because the police deliberately covered up their failures and lied about what happened, allowing the fans to be blamed for something which they did not cause.
So no, the police didn't deliberately set out to kill those people but that does not mean they are blameless. They made negligent decisions, failed to deal with the consequences and treated people who were being crushed to death like animals. Of course not all of the police behaved this way, some of them did their best to help, but a lot of them didn't. Do some research before you start making uninformed and heartless comments, watch the interviews with people who were there that day and the relatives of the victims and see whether you feel the same about it being 'an accident' that should just be forgotten. And that goes for the OP too!
The main aim of the families of the deceased fans was recognition that their loved ones did not directly cause both their own and other fans' deaths, something that the police and 'media' (The Sun) of the time claimed they did.
South Yorkshire police continue to withhold their apologies and refuse to accept their role in an establishment cover up of the facts. They have history in doing this, both with the Battle of Orgreave and the Rotherham paedophile gangs.
The more pertinent point of the Hillsborough case is that, if one can not trust the police 'service' whom can one trust? As long as the police refuse to give real answers and apologies, this case will remain very much alive.
South Yorkshire police continue to withhold their apologies and refuse to accept their role in an establishment cover up of the facts. They have history in doing this, both with the Battle of Orgreave and the Rotherham paedophile gangs.
The more pertinent point of the Hillsborough case is that, if one can not trust the police 'service' whom can one trust? As long as the police refuse to give real answers and apologies, this case will remain very much alive.
IPCC to report its findings by the end of the year and present evidence to the CPS.
CPS will take 6 months to a year to decide who to prosecute and for what
Trials I think will take up to 2 years. I hope they speed up court dates and availability.
So it should end roughly 3 to 4 years from now 2019/ 2020.
CPS will take 6 months to a year to decide who to prosecute and for what
Trials I think will take up to 2 years. I hope they speed up court dates and availability.
So it should end roughly 3 to 4 years from now 2019/ 2020.
Original post by Observatory
what ultimately was an accident.
Accidental cover-up? Interesting.
Original post by karl pilkington
I mean it happened such a long time ago it obviously wasn't intentional yet we have to keep hearing about it.
Imagine if your dad or bother were killed and you knew who the killer was. But then events unfolded that not only blamed your dad / brother for their own death, but also suggested it was because your family were scum and deserved it. And then the Sun newspaper printed a front page headline indicating their version of the truth which is that you are scum. And then the killer walked off without any retribution and retired on a handsome pension.
Perhaps, you might be banging on about it for a while? A little empathy on your part would do no harm.
Original post by ByEeek
Imagine if your dad or bother were killed and you knew who the killer was. But then events unfolded that not only blamed your dad / brother for their own death, but also suggested it was because your family were scum and deserved it. And then the Sun newspaper printed a front page headline indicating their version of the truth which is that you are scum. And then the killer walked off without any retribution and retired on a handsome pension.
Perhaps, you might be banging on about it for a while? A little empathy on your part would do no harm.
Perhaps, you might be banging on about it for a while? A little empathy on your part would do no harm.
The person who was responsible is not a 'killer' that is all nonsense it was a tragedy based on bad health and safety and bad management. They were not wilfully killed but died as a result of gross negligence there is a difference.
I find it amazing how the entirety of the blame is being put on the police, it defies logic.
Something else I found particularly amusing is the way the same people who put a sign on the door to the room where a press conference was held saying that journalists from The Sun were banned, are now bashing The Sun for not putting them on the front page
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Something else I found particularly amusing is the way the same people who put a sign on the door to the room where a press conference was held saying that journalists from The Sun were banned, are now bashing The Sun for not putting them on the front page
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On that day at Hillsborough, Liverpool were playing Nottm Forest. In 1968 the main stand at the City Ground caught fire during a game between Forest and Leeds. The entire stand was evacuated onto the pitch. The fire was so intense all the club trophies were lost. Not a soul was injured.
Why did 96 people die that day at Hillsborough? Because the pitch was surrounded by a cage to keep apart the thugs that had bedevilled English football for the previous 15 years.
Why did the policeman panic and open the Leppings Lane gates? Because he feared that the Liverpool fans would try and force the gates for free entry and if they couldn't manage it they would riot. How reasonable were those fears? Every club knew that Liverpool fans would wait until just before a big game started and try and force the away end gates. Read any reminiscences about football in Merseyside before Hillsborough and there would be stories about forcing the gates or climbing the gates. Only 26 Liverpool fans were prosecuted after Heysel. Hundreds were involved. Where were the remainder on FA Cup semi-final day? No one at an English football match in 1989 would suggest that the fear of a riot was an unjustified one.
At Heysel the Liverpool fans were angry that there seemed to be more space for Juventus fans because expat Italians had bought tickets for the neutral section. In the days leading up to Hillsborough, I was in Nottingham at the time, the radio was full of Liverpool fans angry that Forest had been given the bigger end despite having the smaller support.
Hillsborough in 1989 wasn't in very good condition. But neither were the enormous stands at Twickenham; or the stands at Silverstone or Aintree or Epsom. Most sports grounds in the 1980s were in a very poor way. They were staging showjumping, speedway and dog racing before the 80 year old stands at White City. Only football grounds however were unsafe and that wasn't because of the infrastructure but because of the behaviour of the crowd.
Why did 96 people die that day at Hillsborough? Because the pitch was surrounded by a cage to keep apart the thugs that had bedevilled English football for the previous 15 years.
Why did the policeman panic and open the Leppings Lane gates? Because he feared that the Liverpool fans would try and force the gates for free entry and if they couldn't manage it they would riot. How reasonable were those fears? Every club knew that Liverpool fans would wait until just before a big game started and try and force the away end gates. Read any reminiscences about football in Merseyside before Hillsborough and there would be stories about forcing the gates or climbing the gates. Only 26 Liverpool fans were prosecuted after Heysel. Hundreds were involved. Where were the remainder on FA Cup semi-final day? No one at an English football match in 1989 would suggest that the fear of a riot was an unjustified one.
At Heysel the Liverpool fans were angry that there seemed to be more space for Juventus fans because expat Italians had bought tickets for the neutral section. In the days leading up to Hillsborough, I was in Nottingham at the time, the radio was full of Liverpool fans angry that Forest had been given the bigger end despite having the smaller support.
Hillsborough in 1989 wasn't in very good condition. But neither were the enormous stands at Twickenham; or the stands at Silverstone or Aintree or Epsom. Most sports grounds in the 1980s were in a very poor way. They were staging showjumping, speedway and dog racing before the 80 year old stands at White City. Only football grounds however were unsafe and that wasn't because of the infrastructure but because of the behaviour of the crowd.
For the families of the victims it still matters. Whether or not it was intentional it's a good thing that the gross negligence is being addressed accordingly.
Original post by karl pilkington
I mean it happened such a long time ago it obviously wasn't intentional yet we have to keep hearing about it.
I do but it's a great injustice and is news worthy. Now the true verdict is out they can pursue justice and the ordeal can be over with
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Original post by karl pilkington
The person who was responsible is not a 'killer' that is all nonsense it was a tragedy based on bad health and safety and bad management. They were not wilfully killed but died as a result of gross negligence there is a difference.
Agreed. But not only was that not determined at the first inquest, the police continually tried to cover up the truth even through the current inquest. And to make matters worse, it was public money being paid to lawyers to carry on the cover up. An utter disgrace that we see time and time again, with police officers running for the bushes of retirement to duck responsibility for their mess ups.
Original post by BeastOfSyracuse
As someone who wasn't born in Britain and didn't live here until I was an adult (though I'm a natural born British citizen), I've never felt it's my place to question it. But I've been here for years now, so here goes...
Does anyone seriously believe this would have happened at a cricket match? How on earth can it be found that they were "unlawfully killed"? It was a tragic accident. Tragic accidents happen all the time. But somehow the north, deep down, believe that the south is responsible for this. They'll never stop banging this drum
Does anyone seriously believe this would have happened at a cricket match? How on earth can it be found that they were "unlawfully killed"? It was a tragic accident. Tragic accidents happen all the time. But somehow the north, deep down, believe that the south is responsible for this. They'll never stop banging this drum
I'd suggest you watch a documentary on it:
You said you studied law, this is a classic example of gross negligence.
IT wasn't an 'accident' it was gross, gross negligence by the police and ENTIRELY avoidable. The cover up to blame the fans wasn't an accident either, that was incredibly intentional.
The police owe a duty of care to the public, yet there were not safety checks done on the stadium. The middle pen (the one with the crush) was full. Yet the police not did not close the pen not direct people to other empty pens and instead ordered thousands of fans into an already full pen, causing the crush.
It was the police who gave the orders to open the gate, a decision that cost 96 lives.
Furthermore when the crush was taking place the police refused ambulances to be allowed in the stadium past 3:40 despite the fact that many of the 96 were still alive then.
It was a complete failing on behalf of the police and do you know what they did next? There was a complete cover up, they sought to blame the fans. They denied opening the gate, they blamed it on thousands of ticketless drunk fans (there were no ticketless fans), they interrogated the families of the deceased about how much alcohol they had drunk. They then edited hundreds of police statements which placed any blame on the police. They accused other fans of urinating on those struggling (which did not happen).
It was a complete cover up and grossly negligent.
Of course it's unlawful killing: these families have campaigned day in day out for 27 years to get justice for their loved ones.
Don't take it away from them.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Bornblue
I'd suggest you watch a documentary on it:
You said you studied law, this is a classic example of gross negligence.
The police owe a duty of care to the public, yet there were not safety checks done on the stadium. The middle pen (the one with the crush) was full. Yet the police not did not close the pen not direct people to other empty pens and instead ordered thousands of fans into an already full pen, causing the crush.
It was the police who gave the orders to open the gate, a decision that cost 96 lives.
Furthermore when the crush was taking place the police refused ambulances to be allowed in the stadium past 3:40 despite the fact that many of the 96 were still alive then.
It was a complete failing on behalf of the police and do you know what they did next? There was a complete cover up, they sought to blame the fans. They denied opening the gate, they blamed it on thousands of ticketless drunk fans (there were no ticketless fans), they interrogated the families of the deceased about how much alcohol they had drunk. They then edited hundreds of police statements which placed any blame on the police. They accused other fans of urinating on those struggling (which did not happen).
It was a complete cover up and grossly negligent.
Of course it's unlawful killing: these families have campaigned day in day out for 27 years to get justice for their loved ones.
Don't take it away from them.
You said you studied law, this is a classic example of gross negligence.
The police owe a duty of care to the public, yet there were not safety checks done on the stadium. The middle pen (the one with the crush) was full. Yet the police not did not close the pen not direct people to other empty pens and instead ordered thousands of fans into an already full pen, causing the crush.
It was the police who gave the orders to open the gate, a decision that cost 96 lives.
Furthermore when the crush was taking place the police refused ambulances to be allowed in the stadium past 3:40 despite the fact that many of the 96 were still alive then.
It was a complete failing on behalf of the police and do you know what they did next? There was a complete cover up, they sought to blame the fans. They denied opening the gate, they blamed it on thousands of ticketless drunk fans (there were no ticketless fans), they interrogated the families of the deceased about how much alcohol they had drunk. They then edited hundreds of police statements which placed any blame on the police. They accused other fans of urinating on those struggling (which did not happen).
It was a complete cover up and grossly negligent.
Of course it's unlawful killing: these families have campaigned day in day out for 27 years to get justice for their loved ones.
Don't take it away from them.
But for the idiots rushing in without tickets this wouldn't have happened
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Original post by Underscore__
Have you not followed it at all?
Ther were no evidence of ticketless fans. None. The thousands upon thousands of documents found not a shred of evidence for that. A 296 day inquest, the longest in British history found NO evidence of ticketless fans.
It was entirely the police's fault for ordering the gate to be opened, not closing off the middle pen, preventing ambulances from reaching the dying people and then covering it all up using public money to make up stories about the fans.
The Rush was due to the police ordering the gate to be opened and not directing people to the side pens.
(edited 7 years ago)
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