Why do the Brits have this idea that the EU is undemocratic?

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brainhuman
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#1
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#1
Do they not realize that technically Angela Merkel was appointed, too. In Germany you vote the party, not the person. And the party appoints someone.

Do they not know that there elections for MEPs?

Is it really just the fact that they think because Britain doesn't have sole say in it, it means they lose authority?
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username1204031
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#2
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#2
Because the Daily Mail said it's undemocratic.
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gladders
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#3
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#3
Commission>>>>>>> Cabinet.
European Council>>> Head of State
Council of Ministers>>Senate
Parliament>>>>>>>>>House of Representatives
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TheSuingEU
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#4
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#4
Because it is.
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brainhuman
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#5
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#5
(Original post by TheSuingEU)
Because it is.
Yes, I can see your argument, but I don't quite understand it :/

Could you explain more?
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TheSuingEU
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#6
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#6
(Original post by brainhuman)
Yes, I can see your argument, but I don't quite understand it :/

Could you explain more?
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MagicNMedicine
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#7
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#7
The problem is the way the institutions are set up.

Yes there's a wider argument about whether the EU is the right level of "demos" to underpin representative democracy, but even if it was you could create more democratic institutions: a directly elected President and have the legislation created by a government which was made up of Ministers from the Parliament.

Instead, legislation gets proposed by the Commission, who are appointed not elected, and then the MEPs can scrutinise it and vote on it but the is no elected government proposing legislation.

There's no process of accountability, ie you can't say well I think the European government has done a bad job so lets give another government a chance - which is what you can do in the UK for all the flaws in FPTP electoral system. The Parliament can force the Commission to resign en masse but not the electorate.
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TimmonaPortella
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#8
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#8
I think many of us just don't really recognise the validity of non-British votes where people who are deciding British policy are concerned.
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brainhuman
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#9
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#9
He hasn't actually backed up anything he said though...

And what is Britain currently giving up? I asked this in another thread - if all the decisions are being made by the EU, why does Britain even still have a Parliament? What are they doing all day? I mean it can't discussing laws for Britain, coz you know, the EU is doing all that.
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TercioOfParma
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#10
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#10
Because we don't control it.
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brainhuman
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#11
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#11
(Original post by TimmonaPortella)
I think many of us just don't really recognise the validity of non-British votes where people who are deciding British policy are concerned.
Exactly. British people are particularly selfish in this regard.

And the irony is, whenever something is decided by the EU that people don't like, they blame it. Like that has never happened in your own country's politics before. How many labor voters whinge about Tory decision and vice versa? But if it's the EU it's the end of the world.
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brainhuman
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#12
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#12
(Original post by MagicNMedicine)
The problem is the way the institutions are set up.

Yes there's a wider argument about whether the EU is the right level of "demos" to underpin representative democracy, but even if it was you could create more democratic institutions: a directly elected President and have the legislation created by a government which was made up of Ministers from the Parliament.

Instead, legislation gets proposed by the Commission, who are appointed not elected, and then the MEPs can scrutinise it and vote on it but the is no elected government proposing legislation.

There's no process of accountabily, ie you can't say well I think the European government has done a bad job so lets give another government a chance - which is what you can do in the UK for all the flaws in FPTP electoral system. The Parliament can force the Commission to resign en masse but not the electorate.
it

Like there is accountability elsewhere? In Germany we certainly don't have it, Merkel can do whatever the hell she pleases and it's not gonna matter. She will still get voted.
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TimmonaPortella
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#13
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#13
(Original post by brainhuman)
Exactly. British people are particularly selfish in this regard.

And the irony is, whenever something is decided by the EU that people don't like, they blame it. Like that has never happened in your own country's politics before. How many labor voters whinge about Tory decision and vice versa? But if it's the EU it's the end of the world.
You can term it that way if you like. I wouldn't shy away from that description.

Yes, but in those cases we decided our own government, one way or the other.
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Omen96
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#14
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#14
(Original post by brainhuman)
Do they not realize that technically Angela Merkel was appointed, too. In Germany you vote the party, not the person. And the party appoints someone.

Do they not know that there elections for MEPs?

Is it really just the fact that they think because Britain doesn't have sole say in it, it means they lose authority?
It's very undemocratic.

Firstly the council and commission are the ones who propose policies that are then passed into debate by the parliament. The council is made up of one minister (so Cameron for us) from each member state. That's 28 at the moment. If the UK is against something (representative of the U.K. electorate) but the other states push it in we have to have it imposed on us even if we got no vote on it.

The commission is headed by Jean Claude Junker and here there is no elected representatives, junker picks his cabinet only with the rule he has to use ministers from all around the EU member states, but where they are stationed or positioned is purely up to him. And it's primarily here that policy is proposed, written up and passed. EU parliament is where they actually debate and vote. This commission is very undemocratic, on so many levels. For example junker put the German representative in the economy department meaning all economic policies are proposed by a German with German interests, that is more than undemocratic, it's the same across the whole board.

Secondly, Britain only has 13% representation in the EU parliament. If all UK MEPs vote against something in the interest of the British public, but it gets voted in nonetheless then it is imposed on the British public. This is different because all UK MPs are elected by the British electorate giving it more democratic standing. Only 13% of those in the European Parliament are elected by the British electorate.
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M14B
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#15
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#15
(Original post by MagicNMedicine)
The problem is the way the institutions are set up.

Yes there's a wider argument about whether the EU is the right level of "demos" to underpin representative democracy, but even if it was you could create more democratic institutions: a directly elected President and have the legislation created by a government which was made up of Ministers from the Parliament.

Instead, legislation gets proposed by the Commission, who are appointed not elected, and then the MEPs can scrutinise it and vote on it but the is no elected government proposing legislation.

There's no process of accountability, ie you can't say well I think the European government has done a bad job so lets give another government a chance - which is what you can do in the UK for all the flaws in FPTP electoral system. The Parliament can force the Commission to resign en masse but not the electorate.

Good explanation
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username1204031
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#16
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#16
(Original post by TheSuingEU)
Farage is actually a really charismatic, likeable guy. Shame he's such a *******.
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brainhuman
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#17
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#17
(Original post by Omen96)
It's very undemocratic.

Firstly the council and commission are the ones who propose policies that are then passed into debate by the parliament. The council is made up of one minister (so Cameron for us) from each member state. That's 28 at the moment. If the UK is against something (representative of the U.K. electorate) but the other states push it in we have to have it imposed on us even if we got no vote on it.

The commission is headed by Jean Claude Junker and here there is no elected representatives, junker picks his cabinet only with the rule he has to use ministers from all around the EU member states, but where they are stationed or positioned is purely up to him. And it's primarily here that policy is proposed, written up and passed. EU parliament is where they actually debate and vote. This commission is very undemocratic, on so many levels. For example junker put the German representative in the economy department meaning all economic policies are proposed by a German with German interests, that is more than undemocratic, it's the same across the whole board.

Secondly, Britain only has 13% representation in the EU parliament. If all UK MEPs vote against something in the interest of the British public, but it gets voted in nonetheless then it is imposed on the British public. This is different because all UK MPs are elected by the British electorate giving it more democratic standing. Only 13% of those in the European Parliament are elected by the British electorate.
So what you are saying is mommy, I don't have enough power ?

The irony is, you have actually just now proven that it is rather democratic, 13% is a minority and hence in a democracy the majority can outvote it.

Look if you are saying, I feel like we should not be a part of it, because I want my country to be solely determined by decisions made by Brits - fair enough.

I find that sad, against the spirit of Europe, and somewhat selfish, and full of misguided nationalism, but ok.

But do NOT hide behind the argument that it is supposedly undemocratic. Nor pretend for one moment that many of the decisions taken, would not have been taken, too by the British parliament.
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Omen96
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#18
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#18
(Original post by brainhuman)
So what you are saying is mommy, I don't have enough power ?

The irony is, you have actually just now proven that it is rather democratic, 13% is a minority and hence in a democracy the majority can outvote it.

Look if you are saying, I feel like we should not be a part of it, because I want my country to be solely determined by decisions made by Brits - fair enough.

I find that sad, against the spirit of Europe, and somewhat selfish, and full of misguided nationalism, but ok.

But do NOT hide behind the argument that it is supposedly undemocratic. Nor pretend for one moment that many of the decisions taken, would not have been taken, too by the British parliament.
It is undemocratic for the British electorate and on a British level but it's democratic on a European level (the EU parliament that is, the EU commission and council is very undemocratic).

Let me clarify its undemocratic for the BRITISH (and individual member states) but democratic for Europe.

Plus let me add, many many back room deals have been exposed such as TTIP so stop making out its democratic and open
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brainhuman
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#19
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#19
(Original post by Omen96)
It is undemocratic for the British electorate and on a British level but it's democratic on a European level (the EU parliament that is, the EU commission and council is very undemocratic).

Let me clarify its undemocratic for the BRITISH (and individual member states) but democratic for Europe.
Stop.

What does that even mean undemocratic for the British electorate? You sound as nationalist as Americans.

Something is either democratic or not. You can't say it is for X but not for Y.

It has nothing to do with democracy. But everything with "I don't have all the power".
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anosmianAcrimony
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#20
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#20
I think it's probably democratic, but its workings are hidden amongst all this stuff:

Name:  Screen Shot 2016-04-29 at 00.36.58.png
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Size:  378.6 KB

So it's a little hard to tell. All the same I'll be voting to stay.
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