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A proposal to scrap donor cards and replace them with a system of 'presumed consent' watch

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    (Original post by Vladek)
    I have choosen, but it was an active choice on my part, i don't want to do it by default. It should be an active choice on the part of others. Just becouse you don't believe that you'll need your organs in an after life (If there even is one) and i don't believe i'll need mine, doesn't mean you can take that belief away from someone else.

    Fact is as cold as it may seem that person needing a heart transplant say, is dead, if someone chooses to give them a heart after they die then great. If not its a tradjedy but its just the way that life is. Just assuming someone wants to do something becouse they never said no is wrong.
    This is a question about morals and as such is subjective. I strongly beleive that you must take both consequences and idealistic principles into consideration in such a case, and teh consequence of not assuming donation is that a lot of people will die unecessarily early. In my honest opinion the positive consequences of assuming donation are so large that they greatly outweigh any moral dilemma that might exist about free choice and self determination. As for your analogy with the wallet, it is done in a less extreme way. Taxation. Basicly, whether we like it or not we are obliged to help people by paying taxes. Thus there is in todays society no law sugesting that you cannot be forced to help others. You are allowed to think abd beleive whatever you want, but there comes a point when the consequences of your decisions are so severe that it is highly questionable whether you should really be allowed to make the decision yourself. Either way asuming donation is not taking your choice away from you. Its chosing on the behalf of teh diseased in cases were he/she has not stated his or her opinion. Not donating is a choice as well and for all we know it could be one or the other. In such a case I say you take the safest choice, which happens to be the one where a person gets to live. If you chose not to use the organs you are still not certain if that was teh wish of teh diseased, but you are then certain a patient in need will die.
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    I think that it should be compulsory for organs to be used by the NHS if required, or used for medical research/teaching. Why should what happens to your body parts after death matter that much, after you are dead. It is completely nonsensical to me.
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    How about a general register for both giving and receiving? People who don't want to lose their bits when they are dead presumably wouldn't want other peoples' bits to stay alive.
    There is an ethical queston: a few years ago a donor specified that his or her organs had to go to white people. There was considerable debate about whether they should be accepted on those terms and, once accepted, whether the terms should be adhedred to.
    The old NHS term for motor cyclists was "mobile organ donors".
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    (Original post by Dajo123)
    16, i think.
    you can deffinately consent to becoming a donor at 16, as when you apply for a provisional lisence (scooters, which are 16, are included), you have to opt as to whether you wish to be put on the organ donor register (or whatever it is) or not...

    i think that a donation system as suggested there would be a very good option, as many people who would not object to using organs for donation will 'not be bothered' to get a card, as it is 'too much hastle' as there are many people who do not feel strongly that their organs should be donated, but would not mind if they were... however, you would think that people who wish not to donate their organs would have specific reasons for it, therefore creating an incentive to be registered as 'not wanting to donate' ... just a thought :rolleyes:
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    The organ donation register can be found at:

    https://www.uktransplant.org.uk/ukt/...detailsservlet

    I agree with the idea of an opt out system in theory but implied consent doesn't sit well in the current political climate where informed consent for every damn thing is absolutely paramount, as a result of past organ retention scandals and an over-powerful patient rights lobby.

    I think many people have genuine and legitimate concerns about what will happen to their bodies after they die, and having your body ripped to shreds by scavenging transplant surgeons is probably a scary prospect for them. Even corpses are accorded the right of bodily integrity.

    People often say things like they'd be happy to donate most of their organs but not their heart, eyes or whatever, due to religious/supernatural ideas about the soul, feelings of disgust about blood and guts, and the fear about who will be given bits of your body.

    What this needs is some major cash input to help promote the existing donor card and online database scheme and to give people the facts about how your death could save/improve 10 or more people's lives.

    I think the best solution would be a system linked to the electoral register or National Insurance. It should compel people to state categorically whether or not they want to be a donor. I'm sure many people who would otherwise be happy to donate don't register purely out of apathy or forgetfulness.

    People who don't want to donate their own organs should still be entitled to receive donated organs, since the central concept of the NHS is universal health care, free at the point of delivery. If you were to start prohibiting treatment, it would be a slippery slope to not providing care for smokers, alcoholics, obese people, car drivers and passengers, etc.
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    Exactly spk.

    Strickly speaking my organs are my own, they were created to keep me alive and when i die they're ment to die with me, however if i choose to give my organs to someone else then that is my choice.

    I mean whats next, all people with 2 kidneys need to give one up to help others? i mean its just a kidney and you only need one.
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    (Original post by Vladek)
    Exactly spk.

    Strickly speaking my organs are my own, they were created to keep me alive and when i die they're ment to die with me, however if i choose to give my organs to someone else then that is my choice.

    I mean whats next, all people with 2 kidneys need to give one up to help others? i mean its just a kidney and you only need one.
    There's no meaning to your organs "life".

    If you lose a kidney it has serious effects on your health, so again it's not a good analogy. Once you're dead, you're dead.
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    (Original post by Llamas)
    There's no meaning to your organs "life".

    If you lose a kidney it has serious effects on your health, so again it's not a good analogy. Once you're dead, you're dead.
    and you know for sure that once you're dead you don't need the organs? I don't know for sure. Whats wrong with people not wanting to donate their organs, its entirely their choice, anyhow like this bill will get through.
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    It's much better to have all your organs pickled in jars, with your brain having been sucked out through your nose, in preparation for the afterlife. I also plan to have a 137-metre tall pyramid, consisting of 2,300,000 giant stone blocks, built on top of my elaborately decorated sarcophagus. Then people will worship me as the god I am.
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    (Original post by spk)
    It's much better to have all your organs pickled in jars, with your brain having been sucked out through your nose, in preparation for the afterlife. I also plan to have a 137-metre tall pyramid, consisting of 2,300,000 giant stone blocks, built on top of my elaborately decorated sarcophagus. Then people will worship me as the god I am.
    Is that the platinum option? personally i went with the gold, i wasn't too fussed about being burried with 20 servants.
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    (Original post by Vladek)
    and you know for sure that once you're dead you don't need the organs? I don't know for sure. Whats wrong with people not wanting to donate their organs, its entirely their choice, anyhow like this bill will get through.
    Firstly, if you are burried / cremated then the organs rot/burn instead. If you truly beleive in an afterlife then surely it would imply that your soul is not tied to the state of your body when you die. Secondly, if god were indeed the ultimate servant of goodness, then don't you think he would reward people for helping others? That is, you give organs, thats a plus on the record, you get one step forward in the line to heaven... Of course people can chose, we have not suggested that organ donation should be compulsory (although that might be a good idea) we merely say that in ambigious cases you should assume the choice that will help close to a doussin people live a decent life.
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    Firstly, if you are burried / cremated then the organs rot/burn instead. If you truly beleive in an afterlife then surely it would imply that your soul is not tied to the state of your body when you die. Secondly, if god were indeed the ultimate servant of goodness, then don't you think he would reward people for helping others? That is, you give organs, thats a plus on the record, you get one step forward in the line to heaven... Of course people can chose, we have not suggested that organ donation should be compulsory (although that might be a good idea) we merely say that in ambigious cases you should assume the choice that will help close to a doussin people live a decent life.
    I persoanlly do want to give my organs and don't believe after death that i'll need them, i'd like to help someone live after i die. BUT if you just start taking them with out express consent then you may be going against someones wishes in life and violating them. The current system is fine, it just needs a lot more advertisement, encoragement for people to sign up and get a donor card.

    You just have no right to take something unless they gave express permision, presuming is wrong. Its to serious an issue to just guess that it'll be ok.
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    (Original post by Vladek)
    I persoanlly do want to give my organs and don't believe after death that i'll need them, i'd like to help someone live after i die. BUT if you just start taking them with out express consent then you may be going against someones wishes in life and violating them. The current system is fine, it just needs a lot more advertisement, encoragement for people to sign up and get a donor card.

    You just have no right to take something unless they gave express permision, presuming is wrong. Its to serious an issue to just guess that it'll be ok.
    but would it not be prudent to think that people who would not want to donate would have express enough reason to pro-actively encourage the knowlege that they do not whish to donate, whereas some people with the current system may think "oh, i won't die", or "they'll just get donated anyway", but the organs get left as a relative does not like to think of the body being disturbed, or just because there is no one to ask... causing less donations than is possible...

    people who expressly (sp?) wish not to recieve organs, or blood make it clear that this is their wish.... why would it be so hard for those who wish not to donate?
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    (Original post by Vladek)
    I persoanlly do want to give my organs and don't believe after death that i'll need them, i'd like to help someone live after i die. BUT if you just start taking them with out express consent then you may be going against someones wishes in life and violating them. The current system is fine, it just needs a lot more advertisement, encoragement for people to sign up and get a donor card.

    You just have no right to take something unless they gave express permision, presuming is wrong. Its to serious an issue to just guess that it'll be ok.
    You run an equally high chance of going against another persons wishes if you do not take the organs, and you also assume the person will be ok if you do not take them. You can opt out if you want to, its just silly that you should have to let a lot of people die because a few of those who have not stated their opinion may have answered no if you had asked them before they died.
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    You run an equally high chance of going against another persons wishes if you do not take the organs, and you also assume the person will be ok if you do not take them. You can opt out if you want to, its just silly that you should have to let a lot of people die because a few of those who have not stated their opinion may have answered no if you had asked them before they died.
    If people feel strongly about it they go out and get a donor card, i did. So you hae more chance of taking them against their wishes.

    But you're not letting a lot of people die, its not their right to recieve organs, its a gift from the person who died.

    Its our right to be treated with respect, its not our right to take money that isn't ours becouse we need to buy bread. If the person with the money decides to give you that money then you'll not starve. (Its just an comparision, don't attack the comparision
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    (Original post by Vladek)
    If people feel strongly about it they go out and get a donor card, i did. So you hae more chance of taking them against their wishes.
    True. As i said we can assume that people who don't want to give organs don't want to receive them either- or at least, they come after people who have already said they are willing to give organs.
    But you're not letting a lot of people die, its not their right to recieve organs, its a gift from the person who died.
    Is a dead person any longer a person? Can they give?

    Its our right to be treated with respect,
    It is out duty to show respect to others. Refusing to help others when it makes no difference at all to you because you're dead is selfish and disrespectful.
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    (Original post by Vladek)
    Exactly spk.

    Strickly speaking my organs are my own, they were created to keep me alive and when i die they're ment to die with me, however if i choose to give my organs to someone else then that is my choice.

    I mean whats next, all people with 2 kidneys need to give one up to help others? i mean its just a kidney and you only need one.
    Nobody is taking that choice away from you or anyone else with an opt out scheme. This idea would have to be well advertised and there should be a form or a box on something like a passport form that everyone fills out that you can clearly state the you don't want your organs donating. Having a system like this will also prompt people to think about what there views on donation are. As it is a passport people will have the chance to change their views once every 10 years without any hassle or if they change their mind they should be able to change at any time.

    A system like this will allow your family to also know exactly where you stand on organ donation which stops them from haveing to go though the impossibly hard decision of trying to guess what your family member would have wanted.

    A scheme like this will in no way prevent people from makeing a decision. All it will do is make it perfectly clear what they want. Just having a box to tick on a passport form or something saying do you want your organs to be donated after death yes or no. It is as simple as that and it doesn't deprive anyone of their choice. If you don't want to donate to tickt the no box. It also prevents quite a common problem of people who can't be botherd to register as an organ donar but would if it wasn't an effort.

    In response to the kidney comment. Maybe a tissue register for live organ donations could be set up I don't know. But that should deffinately be opt in as is blood donation because both cause discomfort. There is a difference between dealing with the living and dealing with the dead.
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    (Original post by Vladek)
    Its our right to be treated with respect, its not our right to take money that isn't ours becouse we need to buy bread. If the person with the money decides to give you that money then you'll not starve. (Its just an comparision, don't attack the comparision
    And this is why we have taxes, so that eaven those who are not rich can have a basic living. In the case of money the government DOES redistribute income in order to prevent people from dieing from starvation. I agree it would be very wrong if you took organs from peopel before they had died, but when they are no longer alive I quite frankly must say that it should be a higher priority to save human lives than to allow peopel to decide that their organs should not be used to help others. Still I recognise that other beleives should be respected, which is why you are allowed to opt out. I just dont think the general prosedure should be to assume people would not want to help other patients.
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    Let's extend the idea slightly. People have said that after death one's body doesn't matter and one's wishes do not matter. So why not simply have a system whereby after death one's organs are removed for donation or medical research and the remains of one's body are cremated in a hospital incinerator unless one opts out of this. We would have loads of organs to save people, we could do a lot more research into disease and we could save loads of money by not having to bury as many people and maintain the cemeteries and graves and find new areas for more cemeteries.

    I think most people (myself included) would find this sytem totally abhorrant. I can only be subjective about my next point but I don't think that I would feel particularly comfortable if I received an organ from someone who didn't want to donate but who hadn't opted out at the time. I have a donor card, and that it my decision. It is a decision that I have taken, not lightly, and I certainly would not have been happy if I had basically been told that my organs were going to be donated unless I opted out of a system.

    And on a further note, isn't removing organs without the positive consent of the donor theft (or possibly robbery, as it could be said to involve violence)? As it would be the doctor who removes the organs he surely could not use "self-defence" as a reason?
 
 
 

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