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    Is this not the same aim as what the Nazis wanted back in World War 2? They wanted central control of all of Europe with them leading the Hegemony. Are we not heading towards the same conclusion as if the Nazis did win the war, in the future?
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    More cooperation. What could be bad?


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    (Original post by HucktheForde)
    More cooperation. What could be bad?


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    We won't be our own nation, we would be compromising control of what are traditionally used to, having control of all our resources. It's handing it over to another country whose motivations you don't really know.
    We're capable of looking after ourselves.
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    The Nazis wanted restoration of pre-WW1 borders, further expansion into the East (destroying Poland and Russia), the expulsion of the Jews and the unification of all German speaking peoples (including Austria).

    Guess who also wanted this? Most German conservatives, they simply differed in methods. What made the Nazis bad was their cruelty towards others on the Eastern Front, if you look at the campaigns of Erwin Rommel in Africa there is nowhere near as much hatred for the Nazis, and why would there be? Our own government was in many ways was worse in terms of social conditions, but at least we didn't violently imprison those who disagreed with us.

    The Nazis had no real interest in the West, the French had to removed quickly to prevent a war on two fronts (which is how they lost in WW1), they believed that the Russians would fall fairly easily as they had done in WW1 and the French would be difficult, but once the English came to their senses and came to their realizations they would join the fight against the Soviets in the East to preserve the Empire against Communism.

    Ironically had the German resistance killed Hitler and we brokered a peace agreement before the Soviets marched into Berlin we would likely still have the empire and Communism would have been defeated, it was only reliance on US aid that the Soviets were so powerful to begin with.

    Anyway that's a lot of context, point is, the EU:
    - Does not imprison political opponents
    - Does not condone street violence
    - Does not want to destroy Poland and Eastern Europe
    - Does not condone the indiscriminate murdering of Jewish peoples and Eastern Europeans in the name of living space.
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    (Original post by HucktheForde)
    More cooperation. What could be bad?


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    It's bad because the Germans have a joke army. Cooperation therefore means: "Allow us to use your army".
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    (Original post by W85Y4H3NJ2254)
    We won't be our own nation, we would be compromising control of what are traditionally used to, having control of all our resources. It's handing it over to another country whose motivations you don't really know.
    We're capable of looking after ourselves.
    i dont know the details. isn't Nato already something like what they proposed? No one in Nato is complaining.
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    (Original post by HucktheForde)
    i dont know the details. isn't Nato already something like what they proposed? No one in Nato is complaining.
    Don't know the details either but that's the only question I have for the Germans, why merge when Nato already provides sufficient defence in the East? Unless the Germans have other ambitions.
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    Nato is nefficient and reliant upon a US that is increasingly withdrawing from Europe, and for good reason. A united European army would do a far better job for cheaper and wouldn't involve Turkey (INB4 Turkey will join the EU, it wont any time soon).
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    If it means that we reduce our military spending and have fewer interventions in other countries then I can get behind it. Although, in general I don't like the "ever closer union" that the EU demands.
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    I wanna live in the Soviet, *ahem*, I mean European Union. :angel:

    (Original post by Josb)
    "Allow us to use your army".
    "If you help pay for it. "Or provide us with all those weapons you current sell to the Suadies so they can blast Yemon to bits.
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    Guess what! We can say no!

    End of thread.
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    (Original post by W85Y4H3NJ2254)
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    Is this not the same aim as what the Nazis wanted back in World War 2? They wanted central control of all of Europe with them leading the Hegemony. Are we not heading towards the same conclusion as if the Nazis did win the war, in the future?
    Pretty sure the Nazis in WW2 wanted to conquer all of Europe, and I don't think they were giving us a say in the matter...

    Why is the leave campaign constantly complaining about project fear, and then telling us all about how the EU is actually the Nazi party?
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    (Original post by W85Y4H3NJ2254)
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    Is this not the same aim as what the Nazis wanted back in World War 2? They wanted central control of all of Europe with them leading the Hegemony. Are we not heading towards the same conclusion as if the Nazis did win the war, in the future?
    I'm entirely certain that the UK would recieve an opt out of such an arrangement.

    Actually i must say that i'm somewhat supportive of a Euro-zone military given the reality of an agressive Russia seeking territorial expansion and ISIS across the med. Even by spending a relatively low percentage of GDP, the sheer size of the Euro-zone economy means that it would comfortably be the worlds third largest military (and including 2 of the worlds 6 largest arms dealers you'd imagine the tech would be advanced). So long as the UK is not part of it, i support it.

    I will say that my concern about it is rather that because the EU is full of cowards and pacifists, i worry that it would restrict the ability of France and Poland to act with us when others won't.
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    (Original post by W85Y4H3NJ2254)
    We won't be our own nation, we would be compromising control of what are traditionally used to, having control of all our resources. It's handing it over to another country whose motivations you don't really know.
    We're capable of looking after ourselves.
    What resources? Would they be a booming mining sector fuelling a steel industry that is the envy of the world? And with about 50% of our food imported, I would hardly say we are in a position to do anything alone. Where does this isolation stuff come from? Without trade and cooperation, the UK is nothing. Indeed our power and position in the world is a result of our ability to negotiate, ability to compromise and work with other nations. The days of the empire are long gone. If we take our eye off the ball, there really is nothing particularly special about the UK when compared to some of our competitors.
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    The EU is the fourth Reich.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Nato is nefficient and reliant upon a US that is increasingly withdrawing from Europe, and for good reason. A united European army would do a far better job for cheaper and wouldn't involve Turkey (INB4 Turkey will join the EU, it wont any time soon).
    That was true a few years ago when Russia was dormant. The Americans have started to build up in Eastern Europe to counter Russian influence.

    I trust NATO far more than I trust the EU with our security. That said, I have no issues with a military alliance with the Germans in the same way we have one with the French at the moment.
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    (Original post by Tempest II)
    That was true a few years ago when Russia was dormant. The Americans have started to build up in Eastern Europe to counter Russian influence.
    There was a slight spike in U.S. Support but it is continuing to decline now.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    There was a slight spike in U.S. Support but it is continuing to decline now.
    The numbers were certainly falling early 2014 but the last couple of months shows that the USA is going to put forces back into Europe.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35930130

    I think it's fair to say the Americans have been trying to cut down in Western Europe (like we've done in Germany) but the USA & the rest of NATO (including us) have increased forces in Eastern Europe.
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    (Original post by Tempest II)
    The numbers were certainly falling early 2014 but the last couple of months shows that the USA is going to put forces back into Europe.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35930130

    I think it's fair to say the Americans have been trying to cut down in Western Europe (like we've done in Germany) but the USA & the rest of NATO (including us) have increased forces in Eastern Europe.
    Lol that escalated!


    Fair enough, but I think we Europeans should not be reliant on the U.S. For our protection, especially as they need to contain China .
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    The thing about a single EU army / armed forces is the notion that you would not be able to act unilaterally.

    If, for example, Argentina kicked off against the Falklands again, then we might be allowed the use this EUArmy to take our islands back.

    NATO doesn't have the same limitations.
 
 
 
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