UK must join EU political union or leave by 2025 Watch

newpersonage
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I have just come across this article: https://ieuweb.wordpress.com/2016/04...ion-in-the-eu/

It points out that when the Eurozone completes stage 2 of political union the EU will consist of a single Eurozone bloc, Britain and Denmark. Vetoes are no longer permitted on most decisions so the Eurozone will have absolute control over the EU Council. As it says in the article:

"Clearly without a Treaty change the Eurozone would be able to dictate a wide range of measures that would then have to be applied by the British and Danish who would be unable to oppose them. Alternatively the British and Danish could join the Eurozone and also enjoy central government with the rest of the EU. If Denmark or Britain fail to join the Eurozone their EU membership would almost certainly need to be reduced to something similar to the European Economic Area status of Norway."

If you want the UK to be self governing you have no option but to vote "Leave".
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999tigger
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Or they could just get treaty change.
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gladders
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a) assumes Political Union will happen.

b) assumes Political Union will come about as the article predicts.

c) assumes we can't opt to withdraw then.

First eurosceptics complain we can't opt out of integration projects the UK is uninterested in. Now they're complaining we won't have the ability to block inegration projects the rest of the EU want to do.

Should we really violate their sovereignty by vetoing it?
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newpersonage
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(Original post by 999tigger)
Or they could just get treaty change.
That is what the article is saying. Eurozone Union begins Stage 2 in 2017 (Political Union). A Treaty change and another referendum will be needed within 9 years if the UK Remains in the EU.
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EUTyranny
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TYranny
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Peroxidation
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(Original post by 999tigger)
Or they could just get treaty change.
The EU has already announced that it won't be undergoing any reforms. Soon Europe will be completely controlled by a council of unelected officials. That is to say, a council of dictators.
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newpersonage
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(Original post by gladders)
a) assumes Political Union will happen.

b) assumes Political Union will come about as the article predicts.

c) assumes we can't opt to withdraw then.

First eurosceptics complain we can't opt out of integration projects the UK is uninterested in. Now they're complaining we won't have the ability to block inegration projects the rest of the EU want to do.

Should we really violate their sovereignty by vetoing it?
The Financial Union of Stage 1 is almost complete. Eurogroup already meets before EU Council meetings to agree policy. Stage 2 starts 2017.

Yes, we may be able to opt to withdraw if Treaty change occurs. Any Treaty change that avoids Eurozone domination will give us EEA status. Why not vote to leave in June if that is what is on offer?
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gladders
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(Original post by newpersonage)
The Financial Union of Stage 1 is almost complete. Eurogroup already meets before EU Council meetings to agree policy. Stage 2 starts 2017.

Yes, we may be able to opt to withdraw if Treaty change occurs. Any Treaty change that avoids Eurozone domination will give us EEA status. Why not vote to leave in June if that is what is on offer?
Because we have absolutely no guarantee that these things will happen, particularly as much of the EU's direction is the UK's fault as, rather than being overruled, the UK actually tends not to bother making any noise (as European affairs bore British public and politicians alike).

For example, Merkel's Chancellery has a whole wing dedicated to researching EU legislation and informing the German Government of European affairs so that Germany can have a powerful presence in the EU. Number Ten has nothing like it.

Imagine what could happen if the UK decided to pull its finger out for once.
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gladders
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(Original post by Peroxidation)
The EU has already announced that it won't be undergoing any reforms. Soon Europe will be completely controlled by a council of unelected officials. That is to say, a council of dictators.
So it's apparently not undergoing any reforms, but OP claims that it's going through a raft of reforms. Hmm.
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newpersonage
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(Original post by gladders)
So it's apparently not undergoing any reforms, but OP claims that it's going through a raft of reforms. Hmm.
Peroxidation is mixing up the Eurozone with the EU. The Eurozone is, under Article 20 of Treaty on EU, allowed to push ahead with Union at its own speed.
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newpersonage
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(Original post by gladders)
Because we have absolutely no guarantee that these things will happen, particularly as much of the EU's direction is the UK's fault as, rather than being overruled, the UK actually tends not to bother making any noise (as European affairs bore British public and politicians alike).

For example, Merkel's Chancellery has a whole wing dedicated to researching EU legislation and informing the German Government of European affairs so that Germany can have a powerful presence in the EU. Number Ten has nothing like it.

Imagine what could happen if the UK decided to pull its finger out for once.
They are already happening. The Eurogroup already meets to decide common economic policy before each EU Council Meeting. Stage 1 is on schedule for completion in 2017.

When Stage 2 of Eurozone Union is complete in 2025 almost all EU Directives will be Eurozone directives and the UK will be unable to oppose them. This will precipitate Treaty change (by Denmark if not the UK).
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gladders
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(Original post by newpersonage)
They are already happening. The Eurogroup already meets to decide common economic policy before each EU Council Meeting. Stage 1 is on schedule for completion in 2017.

When Stage 2 of Eurozone Union is complete in 2025 almost all EU Directives will be Eurozone directives and the UK will be unable to oppose them. This will precipitate Treaty change (by Denmark if not the UK).
If it happens, we can have another vote then. I see no problem with this.
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newpersonage
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(Original post by gladders)
If it happens, we can have another vote then. I see no problem with this.
I think a second referendum within 10 years would be hugely wasteful. Much better that this referendum addresses the issue of full political union with the EU. If you dont want rule from Brussels vote LEAVE in June, dont wait until 2025.
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intelligent con
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GOOD it will free us from the oppression of the tories
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gladders
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(Original post by newpersonage)
I think a second referendum within 10 years would be hugely wasteful. Much better that this referendum addresses the issue of full political union with the EU. If you dont want rule from Brussels vote LEAVE in June, dont wait until 2025.
No, because that pre-empts and assumes a huge amount about what could happen. For one thing, each and every time these reforms are discussed, their scope is nearly always hugely overblown (like every time a Treaty was signed before, scaremongers - I mean - doomsayers, predicted it would be the end of the UK as a sovereign state, a federal Europe, and all the foreigners would come flooding in.
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M14B
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Hopefully we will be gone from 2016!
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newpersonage
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(Original post by gladders)
No, because that pre-empts and assumes a huge amount about what could happen. For one thing, each and every time these reforms are discussed, their scope is nearly always hugely overblown (like every time a Treaty was signed before, scaremongers - I mean - doomsayers, predicted it would be the end of the UK as a sovereign state, a federal Europe, and all the foreigners would come flooding in.
Clearly you want to inveigle the UK population into the EU. In the long run the EU will be a full political union whatever happens, that is its intention and the stated intention of the Treaties. It is on the cards that the Eurozone will get there in 10 years, Stage 1 is almost complete.

Arent you ever ashamed of hiding your true beliefs on EU political union by giving the impression that they will never be realised, even when they obviously will?
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TheDefiniteArticle
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This is complete *******s. Political union hasn't been a serious goal of the EU, despite the archaic 'ever-closer union' mentioned in the Treaty, since the Constitutional Treaty was rejected in 2005.
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gladders
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(Original post by newpersonage)
Clearly you want to inveigle the UK population into the EU. In the long run the EU will be a full political union whatever happens, that is its intention and the stated intention of the Treaties. It is on the cards that the Eurozone will get there in 10 years, Stage 1 is almost complete.

Arent you ever ashamed of hiding your true beliefs on EU political union by giving the impression that they will never be realised, even when they obviously will?
'Clearly'. Yeah, right.

I'm done. You've completely gone off the deep end.
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newpersonage
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(Original post by gladders)
'Clearly'. Yeah, right.

I'm done. You've completely gone off the deep end.
You may think that's the "deep end" but this whole campaign is characterised by supporters of "Remain" endlessly re-assuring people that full political union will never happen when they believe passionately in full union. Furthermore, with the survival of the Eurozone after the Greek Crisis it is obvious that most of the EU are fully supportive of full political union and it is indeed going to happen.

So excuse me for being impatient with this endless dissimulation by "Remain".
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