Is the Remain Campaign Damaging Political Discourse in the UK?

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newpersonage
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#1
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I have debated the EU with numerous Remain supporters. All of these have said things like "we are sharing sovereignty now so Remain will make no difference" or "the EU is not going to be a political union".

Yet all passionate Remain supporters actually want the EU to be sovereign because they believe it will make a difference and want political union because it is what they believe must happen. If sovereignty and political union are of no consequence why have we got an EU and why do Remain passionately want a transfer of sovereignty?

What is happening is that those who support Remain have learnt from the original generation of Europhiles that you get your own way by being subversive and dissimulating. Instead of being honest about wanting a political union in the EU and wanting government from Brussels they are trying to lead on and confuse the electorate so that one day they will awake to find themselves in an irreversible Union.

How much healthier the debate would be if the Remain faction argued the benefits of removing self government from the UK. How much better for political discourse in general for people to talk about their beliefs and intentions rather than being disingenuous.
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gladders
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This is an outright lie and OP can get stuffed. Remainers by and large have zero interest in European federal union. This attempt by newpersonage to question our patriotism is a new low.
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username1732491
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This isn't a vote about political union, it's about Britain's EU membership. Different people want to remain for different reasons - you can't just lump all remain voters together into one mindset, just as you can't lump all leave voters together. Some remain-ers want political union, some want just economic union, and some just want stronger political ties with Europe. As gladders said, most remain people don't want political union, only a minority do.
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Davij038
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Pretty much what Gladders said- I'm a euro extremist and I am not representative of the remain vote.


Besides if what OP says is true (it isn't- the EU means different things to different people- e.g Cariline Lucas/ David Cameron) it's no different to the majority of political discourse that goes on on the UK-

For instance, a fair number of Tories want to privatise the NHS but as that would be electoral dioxide favour gradual privatisation. Sane to s lesser degree perhaps with labour and nationalisation, or on any perhaps more controversial policy stances.

Its called Gradualism and it's what all political ideologies do as consensus changes- for instance the old conservative party was militantly homophobic yet now it has accepted and brought about gay marriage. Societal attitudes can also gradually change to the idea of institutions such as the EU which is why younger (and better educated ) people tend to be favourable of the EU.
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username1204031
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(Original post by gladders)
This is an outright lie and OP can get stuffed. Remainers by and large have zero interest in European federal union. This attempt by newpersonage to question our patriotism is a new low.
Personally I'm not opposed to a closer union, but it seems a lot of remain voters are. It's utterly irrelevant to the referendum, because the referendum is to decide whether we stay in the current EU or not. If the EU ever does something that we don't like, we can have another referendum.

The people damaging political discourse are the ones pretending that this is the one and only chance we'll ever have to leave the EU, and hailing this as the doomsday that will forever bind us to the United States of Europe. Project fear in action.
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anarchism101
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Gah, this is what dissuades me from voting in the referendum at all. Rather than actually have a debate about the EU's socio-economic ideology and policies, it's entirely about how much we should be in it.

I don't give a damn about political union or a federal Europe or British sovereignty or 'self-government' or anything like that. I care about what those governments will actually do and how they work and so on.
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ChaoticButterfly
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(Original post by anarchism101)
Gah, this is what dissuades me from voting in the referendum at all. Rather than actually have a debate about the EU's socio-economic ideology and policies, it's entirely about how much we should be in it.

I don't give a damn about political union or a federal Europe or British sovereignty or 'self-government' or anything like that. I care about what those governments will actually do and how they work and so on.
Ditto.
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gladders
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(Original post by anarchism101)
Gah, this is what dissuades me from voting in the referendum at all. Rather than actually have a debate about the EU's socio-economic ideology and policies, it's entirely about how much we should be in it.

I don't give a damn about political union or a federal Europe or British sovereignty or 'self-government' or anything like that. I care about what those governments will actually do and how they work and so on.
To be fair, the Remain campaign (and most remainers, arguably) are approaching from the same angle.
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Didgeridoo5
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It's hard to tell, but probably.
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Maker
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I'm voting Remain so I can get my hands on hot European women and don't have to make do with over weight entitled British women all the time.
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DanteTheDoorKnob
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(Original post by gladders)
This is an outright lie and OP can get stuffed. Remainers by and large have zero interest in European federal union. This attempt by newpersonage to question our patriotism is a new low.
No it isn't. As an EU supporter only anyone who hasn't the most basic understanding of the institution could be anti-federalist. Hint, it was created as a bloc against US and Soviet interests, a United States of Europe...
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gladders
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(Original post by DanteTheDoorKnob)
No it isn't. As an EU supporter only anyone who hasn't the most basic understanding of the institution could be anti-federalist. Hint, it was created as a bloc against US and Soviet interests, a United States of Europe...
I disagree. There has been an element of that in the EEC/EC/EU's founding of course, but for the vast majority of people, including the governments, there were more practical motives surrounding first rebuilding, rehabilitation, and reviving Europe. And today, the main motivation for most in all countries surrounds economic opportunities and allowing Member States to punch above their weight.

In varying degrees, some are enthusiastic about a federal Europe, some are indifferent, and others are downright hostile.
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username2228735
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(Original post by Maker)
I'm voting Remain so I can get my hands on hot European women and don't have to make do with over weight entitled British women all the time.
:rofl:
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