Just realized how Privatized the NHS already is.

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illegaltobepoor
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New Labour introduce the PFI loans which cripple NHS finances.

This allows the nasty party (Conservatives) to come in and start to stream line services.

The Conservatives bring in the Health & Social Care Act 2012 which removes the duty of the Secretary of State to secure and provide healthcare for all.

The NHS is then broken up into Clinical Commissioning Groups which are not area based like NHS Trusts. They are Insurance based in relation to their funding and they have requirements for GP surgeries to join them.

This ultimately means the elderly, homeless or disabled could well be excluded from the NHS provision in the future by GP surgeries refusing to let them join.

If a disease or care need stops a private organisation making profit no private organisation is going to provide a service.

The NHS has effectively been broken up and given to corporations.

Virgin
PWC
Care UK
RBS
Circle
Netcare
United Health Group

Then like it or not the final nail in the coffin will be if we choose to stay in the EU and allow the Trans Pacific Partnership to grant corporations compensation if the future Government tries to re-nationalize parts of the NHS.

Recently my own Mother went to hospital and the one she went to wasn't our local NHS trust. It was a private hospital. The care and service was good but the cost must of been extremely high and my presumption is in line with the recent statistics on healthcare costs in the UK since Corporations where allowed to have parts of the pie.

Don't let the Tories or Blairites try and fool you. The NHS is already privatized and staying in the EU will only help them dismantle the NHS further.

The NHS is just a brand name now. It is nothing more.

But just wait until your CCG demands that you need to pay a monthly subscription fee for your healthcare on top of what you already pay for prescriptions?

This is what privatization does.



And if this isn't enough to convince you watch Micheal Moores Sicko.
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L i b
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(Original post by illegaltobepoor)
This ultimately means the elderly, homeless or disabled could well be excluded from the NHS provision in the future by GP surgeries refusing to let them join.
In the same way that having an NHS at all "ultimately means" that we could make a decision to abolish it.

If a disease or care need stops a private organisation making profit no private organisation is going to provide a service.
Indeed, and unless there's votes in it a government is unlikely to provide an additional service through the NHS.

We're also forgetting of course that many private healthcare providers - including Britain's biggest, BUPA - are not profit-making.

Then like it or not the final nail in the coffin will be if we choose to stay in the EU and allow the Trans Pacific Partnership to grant corporations compensation if the future Government tries to re-nationalize parts of the NHS.
The Trans-Pacific Partnership that the UK has nothing to do with?
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MagicNMedicine
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(Original post by L i b)
The Trans-Pacific Partnership that the UK has nothing to do with?
No but the UK has a lot to do with TTIP which has a similar investor-state-dispute-settlement system in it, which is why there are a lot of concerns about the implications for the NHS.
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L i b
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(Original post by MagicNMedicine)
No but the UK has a lot to do with TTIP which has a similar investor-state-dispute-settlement system in it, which is why there are a lot of concerns about the implications for the NHS.
Indeed there is. Worth noting, however, that those peddling these "concerns" are typically either ill-informed or foaming-at-the-mouth types who sign 38 Degrees petitions.

Not to mention that the European Commission isn't proposing ISDS any more (despite it being a perfectly credible way of going about regulating a trade treaty). They dropped it in favour of the Investment Court System.
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Davij038
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(Original post by L i b)
Indeed there is. Worth noting, however, that those peddling these "concerns" are typically either ill-informed or foaming-at-the-mouth types who sign 38 Degrees petitions.

Not to mention that the European Commission isn't proposing ISDS any more (despite it being a perfectly credible way of going about regulating a trade treaty). They dropped it in favour of the Investment Court System.
PRSOM.


I consider myself very left wing economically, but I'm highly sceptical about most of these TTIP scare stories, from the usual suspects. I'll eat my words if the Americans buy the nhs and French transport system. Hell, I'll join ukip.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by illegaltobepoor)
New Labour introduce the PFI loans which cripple NHS finances.

This allows the nasty party (Conservatives) to come in and start to stream line services.

The Conservatives bring in the Health & Social Care Act 2012 which removes the duty of the Secretary of State to secure and provide healthcare for all.

The NHS is then broken up into Clinical Commissioning Groups which are not area based like NHS Trusts. They are Insurance based in relation to their funding and they have requirements for GP surgeries to join them.

This ultimately means the elderly, homeless or disabled could well be excluded from the NHS provision in the future by GP surgeries refusing to let them join.

If a disease or care need stops a private organisation making profit no private organisation is going to provide a service.

The NHS has effectively been broken up and given to corporations.

Virgin
PWC
Care UK
RBS
Circle
Netcare
United Health Group

Then like it or not the final nail in the coffin will be if we choose to stay in the EU and allow the Trans Pacific Partnership to grant corporations compensation if the future Government tries to re-nationalize parts of the NHS.

Recently my own Mother went to hospital and the one she went to wasn't our local NHS trust. It was a private hospital. The care and service was good but the cost must of been extremely high and my presumption is in line with the recent statistics on healthcare costs in the UK since Corporations where allowed to have parts of the pie.

Don't let the Tories or Blairites try and fool you. The NHS is already privatized and staying in the EU will only help them dismantle the NHS further.

The NHS is just a brand name now. It is nothing more.

But just wait until your CCG demands that you need to pay a monthly subscription fee for your healthcare on top of what you already pay for prescriptions?
But have you noticed that the government has gone very quiet about tendering for services recently? It turns out that some providers have lost a pretty penny by delivering NHS contracts. Who would have thought that it isn't possible to predict how many patients you will have to treat or how much it will cost?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06ycr55
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Numero Uno
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So who would you need to vote for in the next general election to prevent privatisation. Labour or Greens?
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MagicNMedicine
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(Original post by L i b)
Indeed there is. Worth noting, however, that those peddling these "concerns" are typically either ill-informed or foaming-at-the-mouth types who sign 38 Degrees petitions.
No they aren't - Joseph Stiglitz is one of the most prominent opponents as are a large number of MEPs across Europe. The BIS Select Committee raised serious questions about the ISDS and the report from LSE that BIS commissioned to look in to it concluded that there were risks of costs from having an investor-state settlement system, but no real benefits to the UK.

The Investment Court System might be toned down but there is still a very real issue around democracy here: democratically elected governments should have the right to make regulations to protect their citizens without the taxpayer being on the line to compensate private multinationals from lost profits.

The point that Stiglitz argues is that these investor-state settlement clauses are now creeping in to trade treaties but they aren't about promoting free trade, they are being tagged on to trade treaties to massively increase the power of multinational corporations at the expense of democratically elected states.

Now personally I think TTIP is going to die away now - it's hard to conclude trade deals at the best of times but now there is so much controversy about this its momentum is gone. Plus there seems to be little enthusiasm from Trump or Hilary Clinton.

I'm not convinced on the need for a free trade deal between the US and EU anyway. Tariffs are relatively low, and trying to eliminate 'non tariff barriers' means trying to harmonise the regulatory environment between two continents that have vastly different political environments.
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paul514
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(Original post by illegaltobepoor)
New Labour introduce the PFI loans which cripple NHS finances.

This allows the nasty party (Conservatives) to come in and start to stream line services.

The Conservatives bring in the Health & Social Care Act 2012 which removes the duty of the Secretary of State to secure and provide healthcare for all.

The NHS is then broken up into Clinical Commissioning Groups which are not area based like NHS Trusts. They are Insurance based in relation to their funding and they have requirements for GP surgeries to join them.

This ultimately means the elderly, homeless or disabled could well be excluded from the NHS provision in the future by GP surgeries refusing to let them join.

If a disease or care need stops a private organisation making profit no private organisation is going to provide a service.

The NHS has effectively been broken up and given to corporations.

Virgin
PWC
Care UK
RBS
Circle
Netcare
United Health Group

Then like it or not the final nail in the coffin will be if we choose to stay in the EU and allow the Trans Pacific Partnership to grant corporations compensation if the future Government tries to re-nationalize parts of the NHS.

Recently my own Mother went to hospital and the one she went to wasn't our local NHS trust. It was a private hospital. The care and service was good but the cost must of been extremely high and my presumption is in line with the recent statistics on healthcare costs in the UK since Corporations where allowed to have parts of the pie.

Don't let the Tories or Blairites try and fool you. The NHS is already privatized and staying in the EU will only help them dismantle the NHS further.

The NHS is just a brand name now. It is nothing more.

But just wait until your CCG demands that you need to pay a monthly subscription fee for your healthcare on top of what you already pay for prescriptions?

This is what privatization does.



And if this isn't enough to convince you watch Micheal Moores Sicko.
Pretty sure only 6 or 7% of the Nhs was privatised and only 1% of that came from the coalition government the rest was new labour


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Davij038
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(Original post by paul514)
Pretty sure only 6 or 7% of the Nhs was privatised and only 1% of that came from the coalition government the rest was new labour


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Yeah pretty much, courtesy of Andy Burnham.
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paul514
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(Original post by Davij038)
Yeah pretty much, courtesy of Andy Burnham.
Yea I just don't like this rhetoric that it's the nasty tories that have done this when in reality it was almost all labour.

I actually don't mind some privatisation for short term none binding gain.

Like when they shorten waiting lists by doing some ops in private hospitals it's when they say all say hip ops are now to be done privately or when they use the private service continually instead of bringing in more surgeons to a particular hospital as it is obviously cheaper if demand is that high to do it ourselves


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Davij038
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(Original post by paul514)
Yea I just don't like this rhetoric that it's the nasty tories that have done this when in reality it was almost all labour.
Welcome to party politics- Don't forgetlabour caused the economic crash! They're all as bad as each other tbh. The left are slightly more self-righteous and the right are slightly more hypocritical.


I actually don't mind some privatisation for short term none binding gain.

Like when they shorten waiting lists by doing some ops in private hospitals it's when they say all say hip ops are now to be done privately or when they use the private service continually instead of bringing in more surgeons to a particular hospital as it is obviously cheaper if demand is that high to do it ourselves
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Pretty much this. I think as long as its free at the point of use people dont really give a damn.
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paul514
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(Original post by Davij038)
Welcome to party politics- Don't forgetlabour caused the economic crash! They're all as bad as each other tbh. The left are slightly more self-righteous and the right are slightly more hypocritical.




Pretty much this. I think as long as its free at the point of use people dont really give a damn.
Yea that does amuse me, labour never caused the crash it was just their watch it happened on and if things were done differently it wouldn't have been so bad.

It still would have happened though.

If only people took a true interest in current events and politics they would know this


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L i b
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(Original post by MagicNMedicine)
No they aren't - Joseph Stiglitz is one of the most prominent opponents as are a large number of MEPs across Europe. The BIS Select Committee raised serious questions about the ISDS and the report from LSE that BIS commissioned to look in to it concluded that there were risks of costs from having an investor-state settlement system, but no real benefits to the UK.

The Investment Court System might be toned down but there is still a very real issue around democracy here: democratically elected governments should have the right to make regulations to protect their citizens without the taxpayer being on the line to compensate private multinationals from lost profits.

The point that Stiglitz argues is that these investor-state settlement clauses are now creeping in to trade treaties but they aren't about promoting free trade, they are being tagged on to trade treaties to massively increase the power of multinational corporations at the expense of democratically elected states.

Now personally I think TTIP is going to die away now - it's hard to conclude trade deals at the best of times but now there is so much controversy about this its momentum is gone. Plus there seems to be little enthusiasm from Trump or Hilary Clinton.

I'm not convinced on the need for a free trade deal between the US and EU anyway. Tariffs are relatively low, and trying to eliminate 'non tariff barriers' means trying to harmonise the regulatory environment between two continents that have vastly different political environments.
Don't worry, I'm more than happy to call Joseph Stiglitz ill-informed. As for MEPs, they are pretty much the dregs of European politics: on the fringes of the European Parliament you can find many examples of virtually every sort of lunacy under the sun.

You're entirely correct, the BIS Committee did raise issues. Indeed, the European Commission held a consultation on this matter. There's a key interest in getting the mechanism here right, and that's perfectly legitimate. What isn't, however, is to entirely write-off the idea of investor protection as somehow peculiar or oppressive: it isn't.

ISDS and other models are there to ensure that the state does not abuse its power. Sovereign states are expected to abide by their own laws and the international agreements they have entered into. If they do not, then it is entirely right that there should be a neutral arbiter to rule if their breach of their own rules has caused damage to business (sorry, I almost forgot the dog-whistle reference to "corporations" and "multinationals" there).

This doesn't actually matter to the UK much at all. Despite several ISDS-style clauses in our various trade treaties, we need only look at the caseload concerning the UK to see they are so rare as to be irrelevant. Why? Because the UK is a country with the rule of law, where we don't routinely break the rule to shaft foreign investors.
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L i b
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(Original post by Davij038)
PRSOM.


I consider myself very left wing economically, but I'm highly sceptical about most of these TTIP scare stories, from the usual suspects. I'll eat my words if the Americans buy the nhs and French transport system. Hell, I'll join ukip.
It's got all the elements really--

1. Rabid anti-Americanism
2. Classic scare-story topics (the NHS, carcinogens, stuff that we eat)
3. A peculiar assumption that every EU government is merrily working against its own economic and political interests in an underhand scheme that has somehow never got out.
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gladders
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(Original post by L i b)
It's got all the elements really--

1. Rabid anti-Americanism
2. Classic scare-story topics (the NHS, carcinogens, stuff that we eat)
3. A peculiar assumption that every EU government is merrily working against its own economic and political interests in an underhand scheme that has somehow never got out.
Haven't you heard? It's because there's secret plans by Osborne and Cameron to bag top EU jobs once the Superstate is formed.
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username2553161
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Much of the debate about the proposed EU-US Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership—known as TTIP—has been about its potential impact on the NHS.
Opponents of TTIP argue that including healthcare in the treaty will force the privatisation of the NHS; or at least make privatisation impossible to reverse .
Another reason to BREXIT
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gladders
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(Original post by Rover73)
Much of the debate about the proposed EU-US Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership—known as TTIP—has been about its potential impact on the NHS.
Opponents of TTIP argue that including healthcare in the treaty will force the privatisation of the NHS; or at least make privatisation impossible to reverse .
Another reason to BREXIT
This assumes a UK Government post-Brexit would not sign up to TTIP.
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username2553161
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That would be political suicide.
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L i b
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(Original post by Rover73)
Much of the debate about the proposed EU-US Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership—known as TTIP—has been about its potential impact on the NHS.
Opponents of TTIP argue that including healthcare in the treaty will force the privatisation of the NHS; or at least make privatisation impossible to reverse .
Another reason to BREXIT
Another reason to dismiss the utter nonsense spread by anti-Capitalist opponents of TTIP and pity the flagging political lightweights that have to resort to giving these nutters a platform for their legally illiterate conspiracy theories.
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