Islam
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Original post by RobML
I was replying to someone who was saying it doesn't contain ethics.
Right OK. If it were the case, in terms of religion generally, then I would agree (to an extent).
Original post by kiransohail
And almost everyone knows that the media is always unbelievably biased
ps -also worth noting as well as Nadiya Hussain winning the bake-off (with biggest TV audience of the year)
that the media more or less gave the London election to Khan saying "First Muslim Mayor Of London" (following on From Obama's election media savvy campaign style) when, lets face it , in reality, in no real sense can Khan be called a Muslim (he voted in favour of same sex marriage and has been excommunicated from various Mosques ) - He would, if a normal politician be called "Blairite" (dislikes Corbyn).
If the media controls who gets elected then the media made Khan into a Muslim Obama.
So, lets not use excuse of "media bias" give people the HONOUR of thinking that the British have had a reasonable look and decided against religion, in a general sense, and some more than others.
I Say this as a Church going Roman Catholic - I don't say all the "sex abuse" was media bias. I like to think I can accept reasoned argument that is anti-Catholic without blaming the media or 500 years of anti-Catholic sentiment in the UK.
(edited 7 years ago)
Tonight, on things that didn't happen ...
lol nono i've studied islam for several years, quite fascinating, but for the sake of context or whatever i just said I'm in my 2nd year PPE, kinda why i don't really **** with these online forums, firstly your all so uneducated its ridiculous- like dude even w/the internet at your disposal? funny we were discussing this @ JCR. terrible sarcasm mate
Original post by drosstalk
You asked for my opinion- I will probably get a ban for this but here we go. It is not Islam in the sense of the Religion i hate it is arabic people- they seem so arrogant and have a bad attitude in some cases, I am not going to generalise but certain arabs hate western democracy for example on the 74 bus from Birmingham to Dudley- Just yesterday I heard two muslim women behind me saying how much better Pakistan is compared to Britian, I turned around to them and said in a speach - they called it an epic rant and got me threw off the bus by the Polish driver I first stated
"If you and your Parents despise Britain that much there is always the option of going back to Pakistan, You came here to improve your lives but you degrade Britian badly- Coming to England provided you with many opportunities - Like the opportunity to free health care and education despite your nor your parents paying into the system prior to coming to Britain!"
"To accommodate people like yourselves which is a drain on public resources because on the whole you was just speaking on the phone to your dad about your benefits sanctioned - It costs us the working population millions every year" - This applies to white people on the dole aswell as Muslims- but i do not mind as much helping out my own people
Before being thrown off the bus my last comment was along the lines of;
"You can't exactly throw the race card at Britain because much of heritage has been knocked down to build you mosques this shows that us as Brits are being as accepting as possible by not only accepting you into the country and getting you accommodation when there is many war veterans in the street, it not only shows we are trying to intergrate you into British Society but you are ungrateful for it."
Another thing i do not like about Islam is the seriousness they have in religion "faith this faith that faith the other" Muslims seem far to serious about religion and the teachings of the Qu'Ran seeing them crack a smile at a religion joke only happens once in a blue moon - and thats if its about Christianity or Judaism
Finally I want to end on the point of Sharia Law and this is extremism at the very worst a muslim who lives and preaches Sharia Law in the UK and calls the BNP extremists is hypocrticical to say the least, to add to this i think Muslims who back ISIS - there are bound to be some in the UK, need deporting immediately as they are in grave danger of going to Syria getting the training which they need to become an ISIS fighter and then when they come back to the UK they can attempt to radicalise our muslims which will create a trickle down army of them which will have a negative impact on society and this is because A- it will be harder to track their terror attack plans because they will not use electronic communications to discuss plans when they can meet in a centralised location and thrash out a plan to do a terror attack in London, Birmingham, Manchester , Liverpool and Leeds just to name a few targets which are rumored to be ideal for ISIS terror attacks. And B if they can radicalise enough muslims lets say 1000 they will be a force to be reckoned with - which can do numerous terror attacks in regional armies after getting full training.
DISCLAIMER- this is not meant to generalise its just certain aspects of Islam i do not like, Well done if you got to the bottom of this post without clicking the report button
"If you and your Parents despise Britain that much there is always the option of going back to Pakistan, You came here to improve your lives but you degrade Britian badly- Coming to England provided you with many opportunities - Like the opportunity to free health care and education despite your nor your parents paying into the system prior to coming to Britain!"
"To accommodate people like yourselves which is a drain on public resources because on the whole you was just speaking on the phone to your dad about your benefits sanctioned - It costs us the working population millions every year" - This applies to white people on the dole aswell as Muslims- but i do not mind as much helping out my own people
Before being thrown off the bus my last comment was along the lines of;
"You can't exactly throw the race card at Britain because much of heritage has been knocked down to build you mosques this shows that us as Brits are being as accepting as possible by not only accepting you into the country and getting you accommodation when there is many war veterans in the street, it not only shows we are trying to intergrate you into British Society but you are ungrateful for it."
Another thing i do not like about Islam is the seriousness they have in religion "faith this faith that faith the other" Muslims seem far to serious about religion and the teachings of the Qu'Ran seeing them crack a smile at a religion joke only happens once in a blue moon - and thats if its about Christianity or Judaism
Finally I want to end on the point of Sharia Law and this is extremism at the very worst a muslim who lives and preaches Sharia Law in the UK and calls the BNP extremists is hypocrticical to say the least, to add to this i think Muslims who back ISIS - there are bound to be some in the UK, need deporting immediately as they are in grave danger of going to Syria getting the training which they need to become an ISIS fighter and then when they come back to the UK they can attempt to radicalise our muslims which will create a trickle down army of them which will have a negative impact on society and this is because A- it will be harder to track their terror attack plans because they will not use electronic communications to discuss plans when they can meet in a centralised location and thrash out a plan to do a terror attack in London, Birmingham, Manchester , Liverpool and Leeds just to name a few targets which are rumored to be ideal for ISIS terror attacks. And B if they can radicalise enough muslims lets say 1000 they will be a force to be reckoned with - which can do numerous terror attacks in regional armies after getting full training.
DISCLAIMER- this is not meant to generalise its just certain aspects of Islam i do not like, Well done if you got to the bottom of this post without clicking the report button
LOOOOL, the very epitome, read a book dude plz
Original post by dudeeeeeee123
lol nono i've studied islam for several years, quite fascinating, but for the sake of context or whatever i just said I'm in my 2nd year PPE, kinda why i don't really **** with these online forums, firstly your all so uneducated its ridiculous- like dude even w/the internet at your disposal? funny we were discussing this @ JCR. terrible sarcasm mate
Who are you talking to you nut?
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Betelgeuse-
I own and have read the Quran. I have discussed and listened to so many arguments, justifications and various points of views. I have known many pleasant muslims.
Conclusion: Islam is an insidious religion, an anathema to liberal secular values that the world would be so much better off without
Conclusion: Islam is an insidious religion, an anathema to liberal secular values that the world would be so much better off without
Do you agree with any parts of the Quran?
I wouldn't say I hate Islam for the most part but I do have some significant criticisms.
The first isn't really entirely within Islam itself but a weakness in our own society. Our own society has failed to confront Islam on reasonable terms. The left has done a lot of harm in going too far to promote the image of Islam, become over defensive, prevents any kind of criticism against it, even constructive and at times has even gone so far as to impose Islamic values over everyone else in its blind loyalty to ideology which has become dogmatic for the left. Our interventions and destablisation of the Islamic world has not helped either. Our adherence to principles such as human rights, democracy, freedom and so one has also become dogmatic. It seems as though all ideas, even good ones eventually become dogma once established. You had an era of people figuring out and understanding humans rights, building up a framework followed by a generation that were taught it and never truly understood it. I don't think there are many major ideologies where the founders would not be shocked and disappointed by what had become of their efforts.
Within Islamic societies across the world there are two significant problems. One is that as societies they are nearly all undeveloped. The Asia pacific Islands are an example of some of the few Islamic societies that is progressive and ahead of the game compared to other Islamic societies. Beyond that the majority of Islamic nations or societies except perhaps those that have migrated to the west are significantly behind and facing real problems. Even the oil rich Saudi Arabia with all it's modern buildings, infrastructure, wealth and so on is archaic in respect to the practices of the people that live there. All of these societies are where Christian Europe was ranging from over seventy five years to centuries ago. You cannot build roads, infrastructure or even establish democracy and expect instant change. It usually takes generations and a set of special circumstances for societies to develop. Changing million of people is not a cakewalk.
Number two, cultural practices and beliefs are one thing that can potentially change but within many of these societies some thing is happening that can leave more lasting damage on a population taking at least a generation to overcome. It is extremely common to practice a form of inbreeding (first cousin marriage) and this may have been going on for centuries if not longer. Plenty of societies have had inbreeding problems and many allow first cousin marriages. The problem in the Islamic world is that across a significant proportion of the population first cousin marriage is not only permitted but extremely common sometimes representing close to if not the near majority of marriages. It's hard to say exactly what impact that has but it certainly wont be good. The key to this is to raise educational standards in these countries, awareness as well as standards of living but that does not end the problem overnight nor is it an easy proposition to do any of those things.
* http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/health-why-cousins-can-be-just-too-close-the-pakistani-practice-of-marrying-relations-may-be-causing-1483250.html
* http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/01/world/saudi-arabia-awakes-to-the-perils-of-inbreeding.html
* http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/hay-festival/8544359/Hay-Festival-2011-Professor-risks-political-storm-over-Muslim-inbreeding.html
* http://www.dawn.com/news/1212811
Given the current situation, if you're to make projections on how long it will take for the majority of the world Islamic population to reach a comparable level of advancement to places such as Europe you're talking half a century to centuries in the best case. Unfortunately many things are setting/holding them back such as our interventions, instability between regional rivals, the Malthusian trap, overzealous adherence to religion, the absorption of a number of progress adverse cultural practices, etc. Islam had a golden age though, so not all hope is lost. Nevertheless, these are real problems that Islamic societies across the world need to address.
My second criticism of Islam is not so much a criticism but a concern for our cultural future where it comes to how our society is currently interacting with Islamic society. Islam at present is not the only potential nuisance to our modern society which is currently under bombardment from growing consumerism, ideological suicide and other internal woes to name only a few things. This is not the only problem because multiculturalism is also failing. It is another problem to add to the pile. In Europe we are progressive and by that I don't mean the doublespeak use of the term. We have become less dogmatic, less socially imprinted with strange notions, less superstitious and so on. Archaic belief systems and in particular the fervent or even violent adherence to them such as Christianity have been diluted and are in decline. Few Christians are recognisable today as their religion is so separated from day to day life. This is not yet the case with Islam. There is generally a negative sentiment towards Christianity among many and religion in general within Europe that is often mistaken for a specific dislike of Islam. This is often not the case. When it comes to religion, we've been there, got the t-shirt and it's only within the last half a century that we've really for all intents and purposes fully overcome religion albeit still in decline today. We had reached a point where we could openly speak about anything and criticise or even insult religion. This has been strongly imparted on us as epics such as Monty Python are now legendary among the current adult generation. We have a culture and that culture is important to us. It is already under attack as one can no longer speak ill of Islam without fear of being silenced.
We have already seen regression in our society.The scale of immigration at present is having noticeable effects. Communities are forming that are insular, stable and essentially represent very large in groups consisting within our societies. Birds of a feather flock together. These groups are more immune to the influence of our culture and slower to merge into our own or to progress. They are self reinforcing where for example it is very hard to marry a Muslim without converting. They are growing to an extent that they are effecting our society more and more where as our society is affecting them less and less. The projections on this are potentially problematic for a democratic society. Not only are their birth rates very high while ours are very low in our nation but immigration rates remain very high. In the worse case, projections do not look good. At present the rate of growth and immigration here combined with the formation of communities means that immigration is happening quicker than integration. When it comes to the mixing of societies, theirs is now encroaching more on ours with the threat of ours becoming more like theirs than theirs (without out own society) becoming more like ours. Over the next several decades global population is projected to grow substantially but significantly so in far less developed societies than our own. This is not purely an Islamic problem, except that Islam is far more likely to create strong parallel societies more immune to the influence of our society. Think of it as surface area. They wont be diluted into the fabric of our own society so easily and this is a problem given the sheer number we might expect to comprise our population in a matter of decades even if trends continue at a moderate pace.
How much Islam will progress before it becomes a more major demographic and how much of a more major demographic it will become isn't certain. I am skeptical at both the fear mongering high and the apologist lower projections but somewhere between the two is the truth which isn't small. I am curious to understand why projections expect a reduction in Europe when the population of many regions Musims originated from is set to rise significantly in other projections. I would like to know what that is based on when on immigration governments despite promises after promises have failed miserably with the rate far exceeding their projections. Conversion may present another concern especially as rapid population rise and overcrowding leads to greater poverty, dissatisfaction and so on. No one can predict the future with absolute certainty but as our society has already been damaged by multiculturalism I sometimes feel pessimistic about it.
Curbing immigration is really the only thing we can do to improve multiculturalism, integration and to protect our societal values. However outside of that you have to really ask serious questions about the Islamic world outside and what can be done to improve the society there. It is quite sad that in the middle east which is oil rich we're seeing as the centre of extremely devout, archaic strict Islam. In an ideal world you would expect this region to be the driver of Islamic progression but instead it is exactly the opposite. Given the wealth there they could be creating another golden age but it isn't happening.
The first isn't really entirely within Islam itself but a weakness in our own society. Our own society has failed to confront Islam on reasonable terms. The left has done a lot of harm in going too far to promote the image of Islam, become over defensive, prevents any kind of criticism against it, even constructive and at times has even gone so far as to impose Islamic values over everyone else in its blind loyalty to ideology which has become dogmatic for the left. Our interventions and destablisation of the Islamic world has not helped either. Our adherence to principles such as human rights, democracy, freedom and so one has also become dogmatic. It seems as though all ideas, even good ones eventually become dogma once established. You had an era of people figuring out and understanding humans rights, building up a framework followed by a generation that were taught it and never truly understood it. I don't think there are many major ideologies where the founders would not be shocked and disappointed by what had become of their efforts.
Within Islamic societies across the world there are two significant problems. One is that as societies they are nearly all undeveloped. The Asia pacific Islands are an example of some of the few Islamic societies that is progressive and ahead of the game compared to other Islamic societies. Beyond that the majority of Islamic nations or societies except perhaps those that have migrated to the west are significantly behind and facing real problems. Even the oil rich Saudi Arabia with all it's modern buildings, infrastructure, wealth and so on is archaic in respect to the practices of the people that live there. All of these societies are where Christian Europe was ranging from over seventy five years to centuries ago. You cannot build roads, infrastructure or even establish democracy and expect instant change. It usually takes generations and a set of special circumstances for societies to develop. Changing million of people is not a cakewalk.
Number two, cultural practices and beliefs are one thing that can potentially change but within many of these societies some thing is happening that can leave more lasting damage on a population taking at least a generation to overcome. It is extremely common to practice a form of inbreeding (first cousin marriage) and this may have been going on for centuries if not longer. Plenty of societies have had inbreeding problems and many allow first cousin marriages. The problem in the Islamic world is that across a significant proportion of the population first cousin marriage is not only permitted but extremely common sometimes representing close to if not the near majority of marriages. It's hard to say exactly what impact that has but it certainly wont be good. The key to this is to raise educational standards in these countries, awareness as well as standards of living but that does not end the problem overnight nor is it an easy proposition to do any of those things.
* http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/health-why-cousins-can-be-just-too-close-the-pakistani-practice-of-marrying-relations-may-be-causing-1483250.html
* http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/01/world/saudi-arabia-awakes-to-the-perils-of-inbreeding.html
* http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/hay-festival/8544359/Hay-Festival-2011-Professor-risks-political-storm-over-Muslim-inbreeding.html
* http://www.dawn.com/news/1212811
Given the current situation, if you're to make projections on how long it will take for the majority of the world Islamic population to reach a comparable level of advancement to places such as Europe you're talking half a century to centuries in the best case. Unfortunately many things are setting/holding them back such as our interventions, instability between regional rivals, the Malthusian trap, overzealous adherence to religion, the absorption of a number of progress adverse cultural practices, etc. Islam had a golden age though, so not all hope is lost. Nevertheless, these are real problems that Islamic societies across the world need to address.
My second criticism of Islam is not so much a criticism but a concern for our cultural future where it comes to how our society is currently interacting with Islamic society. Islam at present is not the only potential nuisance to our modern society which is currently under bombardment from growing consumerism, ideological suicide and other internal woes to name only a few things. This is not the only problem because multiculturalism is also failing. It is another problem to add to the pile. In Europe we are progressive and by that I don't mean the doublespeak use of the term. We have become less dogmatic, less socially imprinted with strange notions, less superstitious and so on. Archaic belief systems and in particular the fervent or even violent adherence to them such as Christianity have been diluted and are in decline. Few Christians are recognisable today as their religion is so separated from day to day life. This is not yet the case with Islam. There is generally a negative sentiment towards Christianity among many and religion in general within Europe that is often mistaken for a specific dislike of Islam. This is often not the case. When it comes to religion, we've been there, got the t-shirt and it's only within the last half a century that we've really for all intents and purposes fully overcome religion albeit still in decline today. We had reached a point where we could openly speak about anything and criticise or even insult religion. This has been strongly imparted on us as epics such as Monty Python are now legendary among the current adult generation. We have a culture and that culture is important to us. It is already under attack as one can no longer speak ill of Islam without fear of being silenced.
We have already seen regression in our society.The scale of immigration at present is having noticeable effects. Communities are forming that are insular, stable and essentially represent very large in groups consisting within our societies. Birds of a feather flock together. These groups are more immune to the influence of our culture and slower to merge into our own or to progress. They are self reinforcing where for example it is very hard to marry a Muslim without converting. They are growing to an extent that they are effecting our society more and more where as our society is affecting them less and less. The projections on this are potentially problematic for a democratic society. Not only are their birth rates very high while ours are very low in our nation but immigration rates remain very high. In the worse case, projections do not look good. At present the rate of growth and immigration here combined with the formation of communities means that immigration is happening quicker than integration. When it comes to the mixing of societies, theirs is now encroaching more on ours with the threat of ours becoming more like theirs than theirs (without out own society) becoming more like ours. Over the next several decades global population is projected to grow substantially but significantly so in far less developed societies than our own. This is not purely an Islamic problem, except that Islam is far more likely to create strong parallel societies more immune to the influence of our society. Think of it as surface area. They wont be diluted into the fabric of our own society so easily and this is a problem given the sheer number we might expect to comprise our population in a matter of decades even if trends continue at a moderate pace.
How much Islam will progress before it becomes a more major demographic and how much of a more major demographic it will become isn't certain. I am skeptical at both the fear mongering high and the apologist lower projections but somewhere between the two is the truth which isn't small. I am curious to understand why projections expect a reduction in Europe when the population of many regions Musims originated from is set to rise significantly in other projections. I would like to know what that is based on when on immigration governments despite promises after promises have failed miserably with the rate far exceeding their projections. Conversion may present another concern especially as rapid population rise and overcrowding leads to greater poverty, dissatisfaction and so on. No one can predict the future with absolute certainty but as our society has already been damaged by multiculturalism I sometimes feel pessimistic about it.
Curbing immigration is really the only thing we can do to improve multiculturalism, integration and to protect our societal values. However outside of that you have to really ask serious questions about the Islamic world outside and what can be done to improve the society there. It is quite sad that in the middle east which is oil rich we're seeing as the centre of extremely devout, archaic strict Islam. In an ideal world you would expect this region to be the driver of Islamic progression but instead it is exactly the opposite. Given the wealth there they could be creating another golden age but it isn't happening.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Mona-S
Do you agree with any parts of the Quran?
There is a link that points out the good bits, the bad bits, the funny bits, the sexist bits, the really odd bits, with comic icons. Quite well done:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/4/index.htm#86
What do you think - is it accurate in its labelling (see right side of screen after clicking link)?
Original post by champ_mc99
Right OK. If it were the case, in terms of religion generally, then I would agree (to an extent).
lol He was trying to argue with me or whatever. I've got my exam tomorrow, and I need TSR for study help and I kept getting his notifications which was annoying me, so just gave him vague statements so I could stop receiving notifications and revise peacefully
Don't have time to talk about ze beauts in za quran right now 
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by MrsSheldonCooper
It condones the punishment of gay people
Does it?
It believes in the murder of apostates
What kind of apostates?
It says somewhere in the Quran that if a wife denies a husband sex she can be cursed
I've read the Qur'an cover to cover multiple times - I must have missed that bit.
Rape in marriage is ok apparently
But wait, I thought wives could refuse to have sex with the only threat or coercion being the possibility of angels' cursing?
Girls get less portions than boys
Men are legally obligated to a) pay the mahr (dowry) to their wives, b) be the breadwinners and financially maintain their wives and c) hire maids/baby-sitters (since women in Islam are not obligated to be caregivers). Thus it makes sense to bestow more inheritance of the men to alleviate some of the financial burden.
Girls are advised to cover up because apparently the man can't control himself.
Different cultures have different notions of what constitutes modesty, but I think you'll find that even on beaches of the hyper-liberal West, women tend to wear an extra item, namely the bra. In other words, women tend to naturally cover up more than men. Not sure how the "can't control himself" part, but the view that men respond more to visual sexual stimuli is generally empirically supported. I think women who cover up are quite noble for their recognition of this fact of life, and their attempt to reduce the likelihood of males committing sins.
And the day Kim K becomes a nun will be the day Islam becomes compatible with Western culture
I think people in the West will eventually become disillusioned with the secular, hedonistic culture of the West. They will seek more spiritual fulfilment and order in their life; perhaps religion in the form of Islam will provide that. We don't know!
I could go on.
Please do!
(edited 7 years ago)
I love threads like this.
We get a split between people who are stating actual quotes from the Quran/Haidth. Which show the inequality, scientific contradictions and incompatibility of Islam in the western world.
Then you have the people who either say, "No that isnt Islam! Thats the culture" or "Stop cherry picking verses" or "You cant interpret the true meaning because you dont speak Arabic" my personal favourite "Educate yourself on the true Quran".
I know which side I'd rather be on.
Islam is not compatible with modern society or does it hold any truth. Anyone who has read the Quran or has any knowledge on Islam can see that.
Sincerely,
your local ex-Muslim.
We get a split between people who are stating actual quotes from the Quran/Haidth. Which show the inequality, scientific contradictions and incompatibility of Islam in the western world.
Then you have the people who either say, "No that isnt Islam! Thats the culture" or "Stop cherry picking verses" or "You cant interpret the true meaning because you dont speak Arabic" my personal favourite "Educate yourself on the true Quran".
I know which side I'd rather be on.
Islam is not compatible with modern society or does it hold any truth. Anyone who has read the Quran or has any knowledge on Islam can see that.
Sincerely,
your local ex-Muslim.
Original post by dudeeeeeee123
LOOOOL, the very epitome, read a book dude plz
Well I was quite simply stating that they are not compatible in a western democracy-which most of them aren't we should follow frances policy of banning the burqa and force them to show their face, when commiting a crime they will get away with it because the description of all I can see is eyes fits 4 million people in the uk
Original post by xHazalx
Why do you specifically pick on Islam to hate tho? all the things you listed are present in Christianity and Judaism....
Are there Jewish and Christian countries in the world who punish gay people and execute anyone who leaves there religion?
Original post by kiransohail
I want you to be honest.
I'm not going to verbally abuse you or anything.
I just want honest reasons for why people hate Islam. I know WHY in some cases. But if you are against our religion, is it because you don't understand it? Or that you don't have any other examples of Muslim to prove what the media say about us wrong?
I'm not going to verbally abuse you or anything.
I just want honest reasons for why people hate Islam. I know WHY in some cases. But if you are against our religion, is it because you don't understand it? Or that you don't have any other examples of Muslim to prove what the media say about us wrong?
Do you wear a hijab?
Original post by MrsSheldonCooper
Are there Jewish and Christian countries in the world who punish gay people and execute anyone who leaves there religion?
Homosexuality is illegal in:
Jamaica, Belize, Angola, Papua New Guinea among others. All non-Muslim nations.
Original post by MrsSheldonCooper
Are there Jewish and Christian countries in the world who punish gay people and execute anyone who leaves there religion?
Are you seriously asking this?
You'd love to learn about what goes in the deep heart of Africa...
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Original post by hilrho
lol He was trying to argue with me or whatever. I've got my exam tomorrow, and I need TSR for study help and I kept getting his notifications which was annoying me, so just gave him vague statements so I could stop receiving notifications and revise peacefully Don't have time to talk about ze beauts in za quran right now
Don't have time to talk about ze beauts in za quran right now I was just trying to have an interesting discussion. Could've said you were too busy to answer properly
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Original post by RobML
I was just trying to have an interesting discussion. Could've said you were too busy to answer properly
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Wheres the fun in that
besides I like knowing how people thinksQuick Reply
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