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Reply 60
rebel without a cause
what, so if you talk complete rubbish but manage to sound incredibly intelligent, you'll get a first? what's the sense in that?

Not quite, but we're always told to make sure that the examiner can see that you know it. For E&M/PPE most exams are 4 questions in 3 hours. In 45 minutes, you cannot write a full answer that covers everything. You need to pick the main point, argue it well, then if you want a first, spend 5-10 minutes at the end "explaining something hard". For E&M/PPE, you have to answer the question, as that's one of the biggest reasons for people doing badly. You need to show that you know how to answer that question.

I have to say I've never, at Oxford, experienced poor marking. But I do have major issues with exams:
The vast majority of what you learn is never examined - you answer 3 or 4 questions out of a possible 12-16.
The paper style can change considerably from year to year, which adds a lot of luck to what and how you've revised. Usually the people taught by the examiner do very well when the style does change slightly as they're expecting it. My first year papers were in the reverse order of marks that I would have expected, as the maths paper was changed considerably and the economics questions were a bit nasty.
It all comes down to 3 hours, which means if you're a little off, if you forget a reference in the heat of the moment, if you go a little off on a tangent, if you mess up timings or a whole host of other things, you do badly.

Exams are a very artificial method of testing someone's ability, it's not a format you have to reproduce in the real world. And while we seem to rely on grades to tell us ability, remember they are only an imperfect indicator.
Reply 61
Sorry this is a little off topic... I'm from Australia and I just don't understand what everyone means by 2:1, 2:2 etc. Here we are given a percentage mark.

Can some please explain?
Reply 62
In the UK degrees are graded as 1st class, upper second class (2:1), lower second class (2:2), third class (these are the honours classifications), pass and fail. Usually this is 70%, 60%, 50%, 40%, 30% (or 40% in fewer modules) and anything less. However these percentages don't translate to the US or Australian system as is - by general guidelines a first is usually considered the equivalent of about a 3.7 GPA on the US system. For those universities that do it, magna cum laude is roughly equivalent to a first, while cum laude is between a 2:1 and a 1st, and summa cum laude a high first.

I thought Australia had a relatively similar system for honours degrees, but had simple percentages for ordinary bachelors degrees?
parkerpen
I think there is an element of truth in what you are saying here but the point is rather ruined by the tone you put on it.

Well it is disillusionment. My tone is inevitably going to be that of a rant.

Marking is not entirely subjective, especially in the sciences. Within the arts people seem to have a pretty good rough idea of how well they will do in the exams (mid 2i, low first etc). In my own subject all the exams are double marked without examiners having reference to what the other examiner has given the paper. If there was subjectivity then the external examiners (who read the papers of disputed scripits, those scripts with more than 5(?) marks difference) would spend their life doing this. however normally the marks are within one or two of each other.

This is fair enough, but not universal within Cambridge and not even typical within Cambridge.

Writing one stupid thing can diminsh your mark but its not going to completely destroy your grade average.

I managed to read a bunch of last year's scripts, and I saw several cases where people wrote perfectly good answers and had clearly learnt the material well but wrote one stupid thing and they ended up getting a 38. I don't want to get myself into trouble here by going into more detail, but I'd tell you what they wrote that they were so seriously punished for by PM.

In the arts if you do something stupid in an essay but the rest of it is ok you can stil get a good mark. And even if you don't its often one esssay within a large number. Equally in the sciences unless you make a fundamental error in the first line of working you are unlikely to do disasterously. Even if this is the case I understand that you can gain marks for proper methdology, even if your answer is incorrect.

Not necessarily. Take the maths tripos. Fully correct solutions are massively weighted over those who have the tinest mistakes. It's really all or nothing for those guys.

As for differential resources, I don't see what the university can do about that, without taking everyone 'down' to the level of a PhD student supervising. The difference between the colleges at the bottom of the tables and those at the top is also only a handful of firsts, suggesting that it doesn't make a huge amount of difference.

I didn't claim the university had a responsibility to do anything really, in fact I specifically said that all should come out of my rant is a wider recognition that classes reflect a pandora's box of unobserved variables. The difference in Tompkins tables is admittedly minute, but this is masking a massive amount of bimodality in subject and paper distributions. For many papers of certain triposes, people literally get firsts or near fails with literally zero 2.is (PM for details). Bimodality dominates all the distributions I see. The other thing that is a giveaway of poor examining is a tendancy for means to shift by several classes between years. There are papers where the average mark was a fail last year, for which the average mark was a low 2.i the year before.
rebel without a cause
what, so if you talk complete rubbish but manage to sound incredibly intelligent, you'll get a first? what's the sense in that?

One of the biggest ways this phenomena manifests itself is through the tendancy of males to dominate the firsts. Women systematically underperform in subjects like History, and it's usually speculated that this is because women are less willing than guys to be arrogant and feisty in their arguments, instead trying to write something comprehensive and accurate which isn't what pleases examiners at that level.
Drogue

The paper style can change considerably from year to year, which adds a lot of luck to what and how you've revised. Usually the people taught by the examiner do very well when the style does change slightly as they're expecting it.


Absolutely. An excellent tactic in times of change, or even not is to get the lecturer's supervision/tute questions and try and work out what changed from the older one you probably got in college.
Reply 66
Drogue

I thought Australia had a relatively similar system for honours degrees, but had simple percentages for ordinary bachelors degrees?


Thanks for your help Drogue - that really clears things up.

The way things work here is that most degrees require you to do an extra honours thesis year to get honours of any sort.

One or two degrees (such as law) grant honours on a basis of your weighted average mark over the whole degree. At Sydney University Law School 50%+ is a pass, second class honours is 70%+ and first class honours is 75%+.

I guess Oxford is less generous with the marks in terms of percentages.
gooseymcgoose
Take the maths tripos. Fully correct solutions are massively weighted over those who have the tinest mistakes. It's really all or nothing for those guys.Unless things have massively changed since my time, (and some of the same people are examining, so I doubt it has) this is way way off the mark. Yes, alphas are important, but you only need 75% on a question to get an alpha. You can make several small mistakes on a question and still get an alpha.
Reply 68
gooseymcgoose
This is fair enough, but not universal within Cambridge and not even typical within Cambridge.

Really?! All finals papers in Oxford (IIRC) are double marked, and anything outside of a 5 mark difference is remarked by the original examiners, if there is still a discrepancy it's marked by a 3rd examiner, and if issues still exist the external examiner looks at it. Also borderline scrips are looked at again to see which side they should fall on.

DaniS
One or two degrees (such as law) grant honours on a basis of your weighted average mark over the whole degree. At Sydney University Law School 50%+ is a pass, second class honours is 70%+ and first class honours is 75%+.

I guess Oxford is less generous with the marks in terms of percentages.

The entire UK is. Usually you need something extra, something not taught in lectures that others won't put, or something original, to get above 70. A standard, well written, correct answer that covers the main points gets a 2:1. To get a first you need something extra.
Reply 69
At UNSW for science - 85+ = 1st class. At USYD 80+ is first class.

For engineering/law 75+ is first class.

It varies. But yes we mark more generously than UK unis (obviously - look at those requirements for honours).

But we are like the USA in terms of degree structure. Like if you choose to study maths, you can pick many other unrelated courses to fill the remaining credits in your degree. You do a 3 yr degree, then do a 1 yr honours degree. Except in the case of law/eng where they are 4 yr degrees already. (aus BEng = EU MEng as has a thesis and work exp integrated into the program).


DaniS - What/where did you study in aus? And what are you studying at Oxford?
On the subject of grading, they seem to have a weird system for maths at Cam (I had a friend doing maths @Emma). The idea of a percentage is non existent, instead you have a huge paper (maybe 20Qs) , of which you can do as many questions as you want. Apparently 3 "good" questions scores a first, but 6 half-done questions is a third. They'll usually be a few geniuses answering 5/6 questions perfectly and these will be competing for Senior Wrangler.

Maths also seems to be one of those subjects where ability counts a awful lot. You can work your cotton socks off, to quote a phrase :smile:, but essentially to get a first you have to be damn bright it seems
hungry_hog
On the subject of grading, they seem to have a weird system for maths at Cam (I had a friend doing maths @Emma). The idea of a percentage is non existent, instead you have a huge paper (maybe 20Qs) , of which you can do as many questions as you want. Apparently 3 "good" questions scores a first, but 6 half-done questions is a third.
If you only answered 3 questions a paper, I think you'd need to be pretty lucky to get a first. But someone answering 3 good questions is likely to partially answer at least a couple of others and scrape up some extra marks.

They'll usually be a few geniuses answering 5/6 questions perfectly and these will be competing for Senior Wrangler.
5/6 questions a paper is going to be roughly top 10 I think. Senior Wrangler will be more like 7/8 questions a paper.

Maths also seems to be one of those subjects where ability counts a awful lot. You can work your cotton socks off, to quote a phrase :smile:, but essentially to get a first you have to be damn bright it seems
Depends on how you look at it. Seeing as the top people will be getting twice as many marks as the bottom firsts, you could argue Maths is one of the easier subjects to get a first in.
Drogue
Really?! All finals papers in Oxford (IIRC) are double marked, and anything outside of a 5 mark difference is remarked by the original examiners, if there is still a discrepancy it's marked by a 3rd examiner, and if issues still exist the external examiner looks at it. Also borderline scrips are looked at again to see which side they should fall on.

I don't want to exaggerate, double marking is certainly a standard for some faculties in Cambridge. Problems I describe are limited to faculties, papers or even certain pieces of work. Externals are usually ignored as far as I can tell, though with exception I know somebody this year who got bumped up a class by the external. Borderline cases vary between faculties, History will look at your individual papers and aggregate classes completely at discretion, ie. there's no rule about how many 2.is are needed for an overall 2.i, and you're likely to be tipped over a borderline based on evidence from individual papers. Other subjects have explicit rules where a proportion of your standard deviation is subtracted from your mean, and then the usual 60 = 2.i etc applies for overall marks.
I'd really love to do a statistical test to see if having the examiners as a supervisor systematically increases scores.
DFranklin
Unless things have massively changed since my time, (and some of the same people are examining, so I doubt it has) this is way way off the mark. Yes, alphas are important, but you only need 75% on a question to get an alpha. You can make several small mistakes on a question and still get an alpha.

Fair enough. So what gets you a beta?
gooseymcgoose
Fair enough. So what gets you a beta?
A beta is 50-70% on a question (questions are marked out of 20). It's hard to say exactly what you'd have to do to score that, because it depends so much on the type of question. You might have a question with a fairly hard bit of bookwork at the start that's worth 40%, say, and then even a very poor attempt at the rest of the question might get you to 50%. Or it might be a 4 part question, one small mistake on one part and complete failure on another and you get 14 out of 20. Betas don't really count for much though (other than the marks total).

On your other question: one of my supervisors was chief examiner one year, and I don't think it made any difference whatsoever to how people did. But maths is one of the less subjective subjects, after all. And I think most supervisors have a fairly good idea what the examiners are looking for. My recollection is that there were very few surprises in terms of how people did relative to expectations.
Reply 76
Oxford.
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 77
DaniS
DaniS - What/where did you study in aus? And what are you studying at Oxford?


I did a BA/LLB at Usyd and I am going to be doing a BCL at Oxford.
Is a BCL the same as a LLB? Why not do a masters?
Reply 78
The Bachelor of Civil Law is a postgraduate (taught masters) degree at Oxford (and Cambridge, I think). The undergraduate degree in law is the BA in Jurisprudence.
Reply 79
Sinuhe
The Bachelor of Civil Law is a postgraduate (taught masters) degree at Oxford (and Cambridge, I think). The undergraduate degree in law is the BA in Jurisprudence.

Ah cool, thanks.

DaniS, im pretty sure with usyd law you get a degree classification. You must have got either a first, or 2.1, or 2.2.

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