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15 answers to creationist nonsense. watch

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    (Original post by Solis Invictus)
    We observe an object. An image is formed in our mind. But before we are conscious of it preconditioned judgements and values, labels and meanings in the subconscious transform the image. By the time we’re conscious of the image of the object it has been radically altered – there are names to it, values ascribed to it etc. But this altered image, with all the meanings attached to it, only exists in the mind.

    And that’s the observable universe.

    When you talk about atoms you’re talking about something in the unobservable universe. We create mental pictures and images of things we cannot perceive. They may very well correspond to what is there. But they are not it. In reality there are no atoms, particles etc. These are images and concepts that exist in our mind which give us a certain control over the unseen universe. And because they give us control we call them knowledge.
    We can see the effects of the atom but the way it influnces other pieces of matter and we can see atoms using electron microscopes
    see pictures on right of screen
    http://www.ornl.gov/info/reporter/no4/z_con.htm

    (Original post by Speciez99)
    We can see the effects of the atom but the way it influnces other pieces of matter and we can see atoms using electron microscopes
    see pictures on right of screen
    http://www.ornl.gov/info/reporter/no4/z_con.htm
    Interesting. I didn't know we could actually see atoms. I'll have to read up more on this area. Thanks.
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    (Original post by Solis Invictus)
    Interesting. I didn't know we could actually see atoms. I'll have to read up more on this area. Thanks.
    pleasure, its only with things smaller than an atom that it starts to become very difficult, even then with more detectors, the flight of particles after collisions in particle accelerators can be "seen". This is method is almost as like seeing the shadow an object casts. Scientists might be wrong as to what the object (particle in this example) is like but they are never going to be wrong by much unless the whole of physics is totally flawed.
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    (Original post by Speciez99)
    pleasure, its only with things smaller than an atom that it starts to become very difficult, even then with more detectors, the flight of particles after collisions in particle accelerators can be "seen". This is method is almost as like seeing the shadow an object casts. Scientists might be wrong as to what the object (particle in this example) is like but they are never going to be wrong by much unless the whole of physics is totally flawed.
    Actually the common visualisation of particles as small marbles flying around here and there is fundamentally flawed. Tunel electron microscopes provide a visual representation of the wave functions of electron orbitals, it doesnt show what an electron "looks" like. Objects such as electrons cannot be seen because they are to small to be distinguishable by the frequencies of visible light. The visible spectra can only be used to detect objects larger than about 300nm (a hydrogen atom is about 0.1nm in diameter). For objects smaller than this you cant really say that they "look" in a particular way because the concept of visual appearance is meaningless on these small scales. Instead particles such as electrons are represented by quantum mechanical models describing the probability distribution (or actually the square root of the probability distribution) as a wave function. The probability of measuring an electron to be at a certain position in space is proportional to the square of the amplitude of the electron's wave function at that point.
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    Actually the common visualisation of particles as small marbles flying around here and there is fundamentally flawed. Tunel electron microscopes provide a visual representation of the wave functions of electron orbitals, it doesnt show what an electron "looks" like. Objects such as electrons cannot be seen because they are to small to be distinguishable by the frequencies of visible light. The visible spectra can only be used to detect objects larger than about 300nm (a hydrogen atom is about 0.1nm in diameter). For objects smaller than this you cant really say that they "look" in a particular way because the concept of visual appearance is meaningless on these small scales. Instead particles such as electrons are represented by quantum mechanical models describing the probability distribution (or actually the square root of the probability distribution) as a wave function. The probability of measuring an electron to be at a certain position in space is proportional to the square of the amplitude of the electron's wave function at that point.
    hence why i put seen in speech marks
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    (Original post by Solis Invictus)
    But the "atom" is a theory too, which the Greeks came up with...
    That's not what I'm debating... argh

    The fact that this theoretical patricle is called an "atom" is not a theory in itself! That's what I'm trying to say. Whether this particle, which is defined to be an atom actually exists is the theory.

    Obviously it is a theory - it can't be anything else! We can see atoms with microscopes, just like I can see my hands in front of me. My hands are theoretical too? Yes, because, like atoms, there is no other "higher status" they can reach, no matter how much evidence amounts on one side.
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    Found a quote which pretty well sums up creationism (imo anyway):

    'Geology shows that fossils are of different ages. Paleontology shows a fossil sequence, the list of species represented changes through time. Taxonomy shows biological relationships among species. Evolution is the explanation that threads it all together. Creationism is the practice of squeezing one's eyes shut and wailing "Does not!" '
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    Most of that is very good but I am still not convinced about the origins of life.
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    Mentioned it on another thread like this, but Philip Gosse, in Omphalos, maintained that the universe was created, with all of the evidence for its history and the signs of evolution being created too. Quite possibly, if you think like that, the universe hasn't been created yet, and this thread (and us too) are merely parts of its history to be built into the real universe.
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    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    Mentioned it on another thread like this, but Philip Gosse, in Omphalos, maintained that the universe was created, with all of the evidence for its history and the signs of evolution being created too. Quite possibly, if you think like that, the universe hasn't been created yet, and this thread (and us too) are merely parts of its history to be built into the real universe.
    I mentioned in the thread "Crationism is it reasonable?" that such a situation would be irrelevant as it would aknowledge Evolution as a theory capable of explaining the observations made today. Such a creationist theory would have to be consistent with evolution if it were to be consistent with observations, and thus it is no longer an alternative to evolution but merely a different interpretation of the same phenomena. Whether you consider history to be merely a bunch of memories or something real, it still is shaped in accordance with evolution.
 
 
 
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