Fullofsurprises
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Was Boris right to denounce the EU as a continuation of Hitlerism by other means?
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...on-hitler-tory

It's a frequent claim of vicious Europhobes that the EU is some sort of clandestine continuation of Nazism. They seem to forget that the EU has democratic decision making at every level and that all major decisions have been approved by democratically elected governments.

Shame. :sad:
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username878267
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As I said in a previous thread, what is it with former mayors of London and Hitler at the moment?

So apparently Hitler was Zionist Europhile.
I must have missed the part of the EU treaties where it calls for an extermination of Europe's Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, disabled and socialists as well as the forced sterilisation of the ill. I also must have missed the part about an Aryan race.
Perhaps it's in the small print?

The idea that the EU has the 'same aims' as Hitler is laughable.
I thought Camerons prediction of war was the most ridiculous thing of this campaign but then Boris sees him a war and raises him a Hitler.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by Bornblue)
As I said in a previous thread, what is it with former mayors of London and Hitler at the moment?

So apparently Hitler was Zionist Europhile.
I must have missed the part of the EU treaties where it calls for an extermination of Europe's Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, disabled and socialists as well as the forced sterilisation of the ill. I also must have missed the part about an Aryan race.
Perhaps it's in the small print?

The idea that the EU has the 'same aims' as Hitler is laughable.
I thought Camerons prediction of war was the most ridiculous thing of this campaign but then Boris sees him a war and raises him a Hitler.
I suppose the EU may have a secret plan to annexe the United States, being conducted by Herman von Rumpoy from a bunker under Brussels. :lol:

Also note the 'von' in his name - a dead giveaway.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by CarlTheCuck)
Would have preferred a Nazi Europe than the current one familia
Your plan to be one of TSR's most promising young fascists seems to be on track.
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Tempest II
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Now I've seen the EU compared to the Nazis, the Romans, Napoleon, the USSR & (probably the most complimentary) the USA.
There is no doubt that the EU is attempting to reduce national sovereignty & focus power in its own institutions as all treaties since 1992 have done. However, I don't believe they're doing this because they're some evil organisation set on European domination. I'm sure that what they think they're doing will benefit Europe.
If you've got no issues with the EU becoming more powerful (& I do think if they continue down this route we will end up in a United States of Europe with a directly elected President rather than the undemocratic system at the moment) then you should vote to Remain.
If you believe the UK should not give up anymore sovereignty & should reclaim the powers it has given away then vote to Leave. I'll be doing the latter but not out of any deep seated hatred of Europe. Until a few years ago I'd have described myself as pro-EU but the recent events have made me believe we'd be better off outside of it.
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Thomb
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What an ace.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by Tempest II)
Now I've seen the EU compared to the Nazis, the Romans, Napoleon, the USSR & (probably the most complimentary) the USA.
There is no doubt that the EU is attempting to reduce national sovereignty & focus power in its own institutions as all treaties since 1992 have done. However, I don't believe they're doing this because they're some evil organisation set on European domination. I'm sure that what they think they're doing will benefit Europe.
If you've got no issues with the EU becoming more powerful (& I do think if they continue down this route we will end up in a United States of Europe with a directly elected President rather than the undemocratic system at the moment) then you should vote to Remain.
If you believe the UK should not give up anymore sovereignty & should reclaim the powers it has given away then vote to Leave. I'll be doing the latter but not out of any deep seated hatred of Europe. Until a few years ago I'd have described myself as pro-EU but the recent events have made me believe we'd be better off outside of it.
The USA is clearly the model that many Eurocrats are aspiring to, the comparisons with the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany are just stupid really.

The EU - as - USA concept has always been pretty dodgy, not least because of the lack of a common accepted language. The Euro has perhaps illustrated why that was a step too far. The overreach was partly caused by deep concern in France and Germany that Europe was not going to be sufficiently competitive unless it could create gigantic US-style corporations and a similar huge internal market. This also seems unrealistic. Big European corporations like Airbus and Siemens have emerged, but they did so without a federal state or (probably) needing a single currency. There seems to be an overkill in what the elites wanted compared to what was needed and what could be accepted by the populations.

That said, I will still vote Remain because I don't trust the contrary forces. People like Farage, Johnson and Gove are obviously reactionary manipulators, they aren't creative, positive people with a new vision of how to make Europe work.

I also think we need bigger international agreement for a globalised world. The truth is that it is esier to dialogue between China, the EU and the US than it is between all of the smaller countries and the UK is only a small country in comparison, albeit an 'important' small country. We are probably better placed to meet the challenges of the modern global environment inside the EU than outside it. I'm not approaching it from an idealistic point of view as there is plenty wrong with the EU, but these things need working out and putting onto a new course. Throwing our toys out of the pram and quitting is not the answer.
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username878267
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(Original post by Tempest II)
Now I've seen the EU compared to the Nazis, the Romans, Napoleon, the USSR & (probably the most complimentary) the USA.
There is no doubt that the EU is attempting to reduce national sovereignty & focus power in its own institutions as all treaties since 1992 have done. However, I don't believe they're doing this because they're some evil organisation set on European domination. I'm sure that what they think they're doing will benefit Europe.
If you've got no issues with the EU becoming more powerful (& I do think if they continue down this route we will end up in a United States of Europe with a directly elected President rather than the undemocratic system at the moment) then you should vote to Remain.
If you believe the UK should not give up anymore sovereignty & should reclaim the powers it has given away then vote to Leave. I'll be doing the latter but not out of any deep seated hatred of Europe. Until a few years ago I'd have described myself as pro-EU but the recent events have made me believe we'd be better off outside of it.
Finally a sensible brexiter!
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Tempest II
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
The USA is clearly the model that many Eurocrats are aspiring to, the comparisons with the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany are just stupid really.

The EU - as - USA concept has always been pretty dodgy, not least because of the lack of a common accepted language. The Euro has perhaps illustrated why that was a step too far. The overreach was partly caused by deep concern in France and Germany that Europe was not going to be sufficiently competitive unless it could create gigantic US-style corporations and a similar huge internal market. This also seems unrealistic. Big European corporations like Airbus and Siemens have emerged, but they did so without a federal state or (probably) needing a single currency. There seems to be an overkill in what the elites wanted compared to what was needed and what could be accepted by the populations.

That said, I will still vote Remain because I don't trust the contrary forces. People like Farage, Johnson and Gove are obviously reactionary manipulators, they aren't creative, positive people with a new vision of how to make Europe work.

I also think we need bigger international agreement for a globalised world. The truth is that it is esier to dialogue between China, the EU and the US than it is between all of the smaller countries and the UK is only a small country in comparison, albeit an 'important' small country. We are probably better placed to meet the challenges of the modern global environment inside the EU than outside it. I'm not approaching it from an idealistic point of view as there is plenty wrong with the EU, but these things need working out and putting onto a new course. Throwing our toys out of the pram and quitting is not the answer.
The Euro seems to have suited Germany quite well but the rest of the European countries in it (certainly the smaller ones like Greece) would probably be better off outside of it. It certainly seemed like a step too far too soon. Europe just isn't similar enough economically to cope with a single currency. I still think Europe is too dissimilar to cope with a fully federal EU. I know there's obviously plenty of inequality in the USA but it's nothing compared to say London & some of the Eastern European countries. I fear that bringing in a higher minimum "living" wage will certainly encourage immigration here to UK. I can't blame those people for wanting to come here - maybe I wouldn't be so different in their situation - but I'd prefer the government to be able to decide what skills we need rather than an a potential influx of workers for low paid jobs that then undercut British workers. The EU stops us from doing this which does put me off staying in.

I know the Airbus subsidies the Europe apparently gave it massively upset Boeing. I can understand why but if the alternative was a Boeing dominated monopoly then the subsidies were probably a necessary evil to ensure there's competition in the marketplace & well paid aeronautical jobs are available in Europe.

I'd say the last argument is the one which makes me feel like "bigger is better". I do think collective bargaining had it's advantages. I'm just worried, as I said earlier, that Europe is still too economically different to have our needs particularly well catered for within the EU. I do think London gives us a lot of financial clout which means we have to be taken into account when we negotiate.

The Prime Minister did make me chuckle when he mentioned World War 3 as only last year he made it clear that leaving Europe wouldn't be a disaster. The whole thing is becoming more & more political which helps no one.
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Tempest II
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(Original post by Bornblue)
Finally a sensible brexiter!
I probably speak for the silent majority when I say that blind faith in either side just alienates the neutral/undecided. I don't think there's anything wrong with passionate arguments but when that passion blinds you then it's not a good thing.
There's people on both sides on this forum & in the wider world that I do think blindly support their side.
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BaronK
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Was Boris right to denounce the EU as a continuation of Hitlerism by other means?
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...on-hitler-tory

It's a frequent claim of vicious Europhobes that the EU is some sort of clandestine continuation of Nazism. They seem to forget that the EU has democratic decision making at every level and that all major decisions have been approved by democratically elected governments.

Shame. :sad:
Funny how you claim it to be democratic.

Ignoring referendum results, that's pretty democratic.
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username878267
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(Original post by Tempest II)
I probably speak for the silent majority when I say that blind faith in either side just alienates the neutral/undecided. I don't think there's anything wrong with passionate arguments but when that passion blinds you then it's not a good thing.
There's people on both sides on this forum & in the wider world that I do think blindly support their side.
Indeed. Following the EUs treatment of Greece and the TTIP proposals I was certainly considering voting to leave.

However on balance I just think we are better inside a huge political union, having a seat at the table for the issues which effect Europe at the moment. I don't normally agree with Cameron but he was correct to assert that leaving the EU won't end the problems Europe faces but rather it will mean we have less say on how to solve them.

Then I consider the fact that the EU guarantees us rights and working conditions which may not otherwise be guaranteed.

It certainly has its faults but I think on balance we're better in.
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BaronK
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(Original post by Bornblue)
Indeed. Following the EUs treatment of Greece and the TTIP proposals I was certainly considering voting to leave.

However on balance I just think we are better inside a huge political union, having a seat at the table for the issues which effect Europe at the moment. I don't normally agree with Cameron but he was correct to assert that leaving the EU won't end the problems Europe faces but rather it will mean we have less say on how to solve them.

Then I consider the fact that the EU guarantees us rights and working conditions which may not otherwise be guaranteed.

It certainly has its faults but I think on balance we're better in.
You're against TTIP but yet want to remain?
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(Original post by BaronK)
You're against TTIP but yet want to remain?
Yes. Largely because Boris Johnson our next PM is largely in favour of TTIP.

Leaving EU won't make TTIP any less likely. It will leave our health service in the hands of Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage.
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BaronK
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(Original post by Bornblue)
Yes. Largely because Boris Johnson our next PM is largely in favour of TTIP.

Leaving EU won't make TTIP any less likely. It will leave our health service in the hands of Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage.
Bit of a strange one, but it would make it far far less likely. At the very least I expect there'd be a referendum on it.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by BaronK)
Funny how you claim it to be democratic.

Ignoring referendum results, that's pretty democratic.
If you're talking about the Constitution referenda in 2005/6, perhaps you've forgotten that following rejection by France and the Netherlands, the constitution proposal was dropped?
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(Original post by BaronK)
Bit of a strange one, but it would make it far far less likely. At the very least I expect there'd be a referendum on it.
There certainly would not be a referendum on TTIP.
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BaronK
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
If you're talking about the Constitution referenda in 2005/6, perhaps you've forgotten that following rejection by France and the Netherlands, the constitution proposal was dropped?
Well not really, it was just warped into the Lisbon treaty. Which was rejected by Ireland, so democratic they had to vote again to get the right result.
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Tempest II
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(Original post by Bornblue)
Indeed. Following the EUs treatment of Greece and the TTIP proposals I was certainly considering voting to leave.

However on balance I just think we are better inside a huge political union, having a seat at the table for the issues which effect Europe at the moment. I don't normally agree with Cameron but he was correct to assert that leaving the EU won't end the problems Europe faces but rather it will mean we have less say on how to solve them.

Then I consider the fact that the EU guarantees us rights and working conditions which may not otherwise be guaranteed.

It certainly has its faults but I think on balance we're better in.
I do think there's quite a few people on this forum (I'd include yourself in this) who I don't necessarily see eye to eye with but I can respect & understand their POV. Whereas there's some I might agree with in principle but they put their points across in such a way that it just seems counter productive & rude.

I don't know enough about TTIP as I'd like to (I saw some sensationalist headline at one point saying it'd destroy the NHS which I was naturally sceptical of).
I have nothing against unions for certain things - there certainly are parts of the EU I do think are advantageous - the science side of it of instance (especially if we can crack Nuclear Fusion). When Steven Hawking & about another 150 scientists say we're better off in the EU for science funding then I do think it's a good idea to listen.

If we did leave the EU, I can't see there being an major change to worker rights even if someone like Boris or Gove became PM. They'd almost certainly be committing electoral suicide if they tried to change any cornerstones.
I'd much rather have the ability to vote for a government for what they can control rather than the current situation where we're voting for one which doesn't have that power. It also means that we can hold the Westminster politicians to account easier - some politicians use the EU as cover for avoiding doing certain things. Maybe I'm being unrealistically optimistic but I'd like to think they'd no longer have that defence (such as with the Home Secretary & deporting certain foreign criminals).
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the bear
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Boris would have had more success if he had compared the EU project to Philip II of Macedon who unified the disparate Greek city states in the fourth century before Christ.
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