The Student Room Group

Scroll to see replies

Do Chickens Fly
Finally, some sense is being input into this discussion. I'd be a little controversial and say most, not many, gained their place by those merits.


So most gain their place with qualifications they only have because exams get easier?... presumably if the exams were harder then they'd get lower grades, but would still - coming in certain percentile - get the place. (Assuming the same people would do well in this, harder system).
my somewhat belated input to this debate...
based on my experience (got a conditional offer) and that of a number of people i know who applied to oxbridge, and advice we were given, a key thing the admissions tutors are looking for is someone they get on well with, presumably with good social skills. as they have such a huge number of candidates to pick from, theyre much going to prefer teaching a student they can easily hold a conversation with over one they cannot - and this seems to be far more significant than a prospective applicant's score on a test of questionable internal and external validity.
im not suggesting that all people with lower IQs have better social skills and high IQs have worse social skills - although those with exceptional scores dont always seem to be capable of normal interaction, imo - just its something worth bearing in mind when considering if IQ, exceptional intelligence etc is always what they are looking for.
Profesh
'Whom' is an object pronoun; 'who' is the subject. Let's be wary of whom we accuse of 'pretension', having taken such obvious pains to assert our own linguistic legerdemain. Otherwise:



I absolutely concur. I might qualify for MENSA; it would do little, however, toward demonstrating academic potential. Indeed, it is trite that MENSA's 'active' constituency comprises either such monumental prodigies as will have enjoyed effortless distinction in all other walks of life and, compelled by a sense of 'noblesse oblige' [their own narcissism], wish to espouse a society dedicated exclusively to the celebration and promulgation of human cultural advancement [themselves] through intellectual refinement [posturing]; or disaffected intellects of marginal standing and meagre accomplishment, who seek a kind of approbation and peer-validation that they cannot reasonably expect elsewhere; or an amalgam of the two: gifted but ineffectual misanthropes that are too consumed by ennui, cynicism or acute neuroses to pursue the careers in law, medicine and/or quantum-physics that they were otherwise born to. The archetypal (okay, stereotypical) 'mensan' left school with a constellation of GCSEs and a triumvirate of A-Levels, only to flounder at university because they couldn't negotiate living independently/were too-easily distracted/prone to tangential digressions/ruminating on Proust, and found themselves shortly thereafter eking out an ignominious occupation conducting buses or teaching at inner-city schools. They joined MENSA in order to fraternise constructively with people of (broadly speaking) university-level intelligence, absent the raft of obligations concomitant with university attendance. (At least, that's why I'd join.)

Your modicum of academic potential will already be apparent from your A-Level predictions. It is axiomatic that whilst virtually anyone of reasonable intelligence will succeed at A-Level, not everyone who succeeds at A-Level is (broadly-speaking) 'intelligent', at least not in a manner conducive to 'redbrick' education: hence interviews; because the premonition of someone whose own 'intellect' has been already sanctioned and affirmed beyond reproach is probably as reliable a barometer as any. Thus, to attempt artificially tipping the balance by citation of vague and spurious, if not altogether unaccountable, evidence for some nebulous notion of 'intelligence' possessed of yourself would betray sheer arrogance. Personal statements are supposed to exhibit character; they are complementary to what is an otherwise one-dimensional, academic profile. By all means allude to the time when you orchestrated a three-hundred man 'chess-off' at your local MENSA chapter, to which qualification would be an incidental pre-requisite (because some people's 'character' is, after all, intellectual; and academic intellectuals are the bread-and-butter of Oxbridge), but don't expect that they will apportion to it any more weight than the prospective mathmo's professed affinity for one-digit cryptic su-doku.

Indeed, as someone mentioned previously, citing MENSA membership as though a bona fide certification of intelligence (even assuming 'intelligence' were the sole criterion for admission to Oxford/Cambridge) would probably suggest naïveté more than anything else. Why should the admissions tutor dispose himself any more favourably toward your application as a result than would a MENSA adjutant toward someone, who possibly fell short on the I.Q. front, for having scrawled 'I got into Cambridge!' in hysterical, italicised font across the front of their exam-script? The two simply don't equate.

Of course, were MENSA an exam-board, and a score of '130+' deemed equivalent to 'AAA', perhaps it would be different.



This is entirely off topic, for which I apologise in advance, but it angered me slightly. You tell somebody off for attempting to sound cleverer than they are and then proceed to post an awfully long post full of very clever sounding words. This post you used the words "adjutant", "axiomatic", "triumvirate", "nebulous", "ignomious" and "approbation". There are two words there that I couldn't use in a sentence. You start your post "I absolutely concur", for goodness sake. The first rule of writing well is to write clearly, and you fail spectacularly. Try writing in a plainer fashion and people might actually finish your posts.

I'd far rather read a post littered with a few grammatical mistakes than the stuff you write, which seems to me to be an exercise in showing off your vocabulary.

"noblesse oblige" indeed.

PS in what sense is that axiomatic? Do you simply mean that it's obvious? Because if you used that word it'd be clearer and more true, though I warn you that you may risk sounding less clever.
Reply 123
I like the way Profesh writes. It's fresh, different, novel, unique. Wouldn't it be a bit boring if everyone wrote the same way?
It's dull, turgid and pretentious.
Reply 125
I agree that it's turgid and pretentious, but I'm not certain it's dull - at least in small doses anyway.
Reply 126
coldfish
This is entirely off topic, for which I apologise in advance, but it angered me slightly. You tell somebody off for attempting to sound cleverer than they are and then proceed to post an awfully long post full of very clever sounding words. This post you used the words "adjutant", "axiomatic", "triumvirate", "nebulous", "ignomious" and "approbation". There are two words there that I couldn't use in a sentence. You start your post "I absolutely concur", for goodness sake. The first rule of writing well is to write clearly, and you fail spectacularly. Try writing in a plainer fashion and people might actually finish your posts.


Hint: I wouldn't recommend using 'ignomious'.

I'd far rather read a post littered with a few grammatical mistakes than the stuff you write, which seems to me to be an exercise in showing off your vocabulary.

"noblesse oblige" indeed.


Why is it that you sound suspiciously similar to everybody else that has ever voiced such an opinion? You all seem to occupy that same stolid, tedious, dogmatic Orwellian mode: with your 'rules' for writing 'well', as though Orwell's trite bloody opinion on the subject was ever in any way definitive (or even, at the risk of descending into self-parody, axiomatic). Orwell may have been a clever sod, but some of his attitudes were tantamount to monomania.

As for being "pretentious": do you have any idea, by the criteria which you espouse, how 'pretentious' is poetry? Art? Philosophy? The very concept of fiction? Perhaps, the word you require is 'ostentatious'; but then, I suppose that might not be pejorative enough for your purposes. (Ho ho.) Suffice it to say, I do hope that I shan't be required to literally 'frame' each and every one of my posts so that your ilk might dismiss it out-of-hand as mere 'aestheticism', but at least deign to let it alone; because I daresay that such an outcome would be almost as regrettable, and every bit as egregious.

Perhaps '1984' is as lost on you as it was on its author. Suffice it to say: if everybody aspired to be as I am, we probably wouldn't have means to live; if everybody practised as you do, I doubt we'd retain the motivation (or, for that matter, the incentive).

In any event, you're the sort of person who would burn a book, that others may never read it: please, for my sake, do simply ignore me; I dread the alternative (and what it might spell for my, hitherto modest, carbon-footprint).

PS in what sense is that axiomatic? Do you simply mean that it's obvious? Because if you used that word it'd be clearer and more true, though I warn you that you may risk sounding less clever.


P.S. It is 'axiomatic' in the sense of being a fundamental, governing, self-evident premise; it is also obvious. (Indeed, I would've thought that much was genuinely 'obvious'.) Contest it, however, if you will: it might be spurious(!).
Reply 127
Profesh
Hint: I wouldn't recommend using 'ignomious'.

Strictly speaking, you might use it; it's a variant spelling (if a rather outdated one). Although I suppose it is a bit uncommon...
Reply 128
hobnob
Strictly speaking, you might use it; it's a variant spelling (if a rather outdated one). Although I suppose it is a bit uncommon...


Not the one I used, however. Still, what's your source? (I'm genuinely intrigued.)
Reply 129
Profesh
Not the one I used, however. Still, what's your source? (I'm genuinely intrigued.)

I wouldn't use it either, but it's listed here.
There's a distinction between writing interestingly and simply using as many obscure words as you possibly can. I don't have a problem with precise vocabulary and interesting words, but (for example) using "a triumvirate of A-levels" when what you mean is "three A-levels". What's the point?

I judge poetry by different standards to how I judge posts in an internet forum. I think I'm rather reasonable in doing this.
coldfish
This is entirely off topic, for which I apologise in advance, but it angered me slightly. You tell somebody off for attempting to sound cleverer than they are and then proceed to post an awfully long post full of very clever sounding words. This post you used the words "adjutant", "axiomatic", "triumvirate", "nebulous", "ignomious" and "approbation". There are two words there that I couldn't use in a sentence. You start your post "I absolutely concur", for goodness sake. The first rule of writing well is to write clearly, and you fail spectacularly. Try writing in a plainer fashion and people might actually finish your posts.

I'd far rather read a post littered with a few grammatical mistakes than the stuff you write, which seems to me to be an exercise in showing off your vocabulary.


I've said this to Profesh before; I think he needs to grow up, as a writer, before he will accept that being a good writer and an overstraining dictionary-cormorant are not the same thing.
Regarding the "aesthetic" case, I find such convoluted prose hugely unappealing. Lengthy periods can encapsulate an elegance and poise of both thought and argument. Reading Profesh tends more towards a game of "hunt the predicate". Likewise, deploying exotic vocabulary is rather like spicing a dish: a subtle blend of flavours will go further than everything in the rack, plus marmite and cornflour to thicken it out.

I also find something distinctly unaesthetic in such catachrestic uses as "a triumvirate of A-levels", when, strictly speaking, "triumvirate" refers to people (evident in the etymology). Though this may be a personal pedantry.
Reply 133
Fun Quiz! Which of these words does NOT describe Profesh?

Obscurantist, Amphigoric, Obtuse, Circumlocutory, Dithyrambic, Catastrophonical, Fecund, Logomachist, Perissological
Reply 134
Profesh
You all seem to occupy that same stolid, tedious, dogmatic Orwellian mode: with your 'rules' for writing 'well', as though Orwell's trite bloody opinion on the subject was ever in any way definitive (or even, at the risk of descending into self-parody, axiomatic). Orwell may have been a clever sod, but some of his attitudes were tantamount to monomania.

I have to agree here, the senseless idol worshipping of Orwell is one among a great many of canards, which become veritable fixations (or idée fixes, haha) that grasp at the half-educated mind. Rather like the belief in genes and 'nature' determining one's character in its totality, that there is an essential differentiation with respect to cognitive patterns between various languages (with such attendant beliefs that Eskimos have several words for snow), Freudian psychoanalysis, innumerable historical errors and postmodernism.
Ferrus
that there is an essential differentiation with respect to cognitive patterns between various languages (with such attendant beliefs that Eskimos have several words for snow)


The differences between, say, the size of semantic fields in languages can indeed be taken as an indicator of cognitive patterns (though I accept that a watery version of this argument is one idée fixe, or perhaps reçue, to which you object). For example, the fact that the categories of human colour perception are not fixed can be demonstrated by examining the number of colour categories in a variety of languages : some tribal languages only possess words for black, white, and red - and I think the next 'most-perceived' colour category is blue. This suggests a (universal) cognitive pattern, a heightened percetion of these first three categories, on the basis of a linguistic analysis. [viz, for example, John R. Taylor, Linguistic Categorization: Prototypes in Linguistic Theory (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1995) - lest you lump me among the half-educated. I can probably refer you to a few more cognitive science articles that support this point.]

Besides, it should be obvious that as far as a language is adapted to the conditions it is used in, it embodies a form of life, and concomitant cognitive activity.

I'm by no means an Orwell worshipper, and despise popular psychology and science (particular arguments about the lateralization of the brain hemispheres) for just this fact that they are idées reçues. A good deal of Orwell's stylistic guidance offered in 'Politics and the English Language' (I presume this is the essay being alluded to) I do find sound; though I'm perfectly capable of establishing my own criteria for evaluating good writing, and supporting them, and would never cite Orwell as a reference.
Reply 136
Da Bachtopus
Besides, it should be obvious that as far as a language is adapted to the conditions it is used in, it embodies a form of life, and concomitant cognitive activity.

Well of course - artists across cultures will draw in evidently different manners, but surely this is merely a reflection of cultural elements impinging upon what is essentially the same process. Even if one is accustomed to draw in a certain way this does not in turn preclude apprehension of other works from other cultures, if one understands the assumptive beliefs attached therewith.

And yes, idée reçue delineates the nature of the phenomenon well, though attempts to contradict this very belief readily mould it into a fixed position defended with feeble-minded indignation.
Ferrus
Well of course - artists across cultures will draw in evidently different manners, but surely this is merely a reflection of cultural elements impinging upon what is essentially the same process. Even if one is accustomed to draw in a certain way this does not in turn preclude apprehension of other works from other cultures, if one understands the assumptive beliefs attached therewith.


Yes, though finding cognitive processes embedded in practical language use is rather a different matter from finding them in (representational) art, whose 'grammars' are defined within much narrow contexts.

Apprehending the works of another culture and comprehending them aren't identical (though I don't think this is what you were getting at). But I think the whole hermeneutic process is rather more complex than you imply; reading a work in full knowledge that one is using 'assumptive beliefs' is a notion counter to the immanent experience of an artwork - whatever that experience is, you'll still be framing the artwork as that of a foreign culture, the total of which is your experience. Across history, I think these beliefs are impossible to regain fully: can we, say, recover the intial impact of an unusual diminished seventh in Beethoven now that it's become such a musical cliché?
Reply 138
Da Bachtopus
Yes, though finding cognitive processes embedded in practical language use is rather a different matter from finding them in (representational) art, whose 'grammars' are defined within much narrow contexts.

The grammar may well be more complex, but that does not necessarily suggest the grammar and the associated cognitive processes of two languages therefore show greater variance.
Across history, I think these beliefs are impossible to regain fully: can we, say, recover the intial impact of an unusual diminished seventh in Beethoven now that it's become such a musical cliché?

This is true - but is this not more the result of our empirical experience than the 'essential nature' of any such piece of art?
Ferrus
The grammar may well be more complex, but that does not necessarily suggest the grammar and the associated cognitive processes of two languages therefore show greater variance.


My point was that your analogy, between visual art and practical language use, was untenable. The 'grammar' of representational art, if there is such a thing, operates only within the context in which you'd expect to find that artwork: any arguments about cognitive activity here would involve quite a different, more rarified, form of reception than those about fundamental perceptual phenomena. Art is already an activity saturated with cultural history, and if we're to use it as a way of addressing cognitive science, then we're taking an approach from the opposite direction to that examining simply schematic sentences, word classification &c. By changing the discussion to one about art, you're departing quite some way from the original issue (into much more complex and intriguing territory - though a departure nonetheless).

This is true - but is this not more the result of our empirical experience than the 'essential nature' of any such piece of art?


Piano sonatas don't exist in a vacuum. I see the point you're getting at, but to consider the 'essential' nature of music as a series of relationships between frequencies is to transpose it (as it were) into a conceptual realm so far from our actual experience of music that something other, genuinely essential, is lost. Whilst there are various forms isomorphic to that of a piece of music, we can genuinely call 'music' only what we're accustomed to understand as music. And of course that understanding becomes historically situated. Besides, it's not as if Beethoven wrote the Eroica as an 'essential form' without attempting to subvert Haydenesque symphonic writing; composers, both consciously and unconsciously, take part in a tradition, so it's naive to suggest that their works can then be ripped back out of it.