You cannot be a progressive and moral relativist Watch

KingBradly
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If you believe that every culture is equal and that you can't say one is more morally correct than the other, then there is no reason to progress our own society, as the culture of the status quo can be said to be neither better nor worse than the culture you foresee which you want to progress towards.
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1420787
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(Original post by KingBradly)
If you believe that every culture is equal and that you can't say one is more morally correct than the other, then there is no reason to progress our own society, as the culture of the status quo can be said to be neither better nor worse than the culture you foresee which you want to progress towards.
I think that you misinterpret what moral relativism is.
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KingBradly
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(Original post by offhegoes)
I think that you misinterpret what moral relativism is.
Ok, cultural relativism then. People who say that all cultures are equal.
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1420787
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(Original post by KingBradly)
Ok, cultural relativism then. People who say that all cultures are equal.
That isn't what cultural relativism is, either.
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KingBradly
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(Original post by offhegoes)
That isn't what cultural relativism is, either.
Yeh, it pretty much is. Stop weaselling out of the argument.
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M14B
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Wtf is cultural relativism?
Either yre you copying from the book or I am plain thick
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1420787
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(Original post by KingBradly)
Yeh, it pretty much is. Stop weaselling out of the argument.
Cultural relativism is the idea that the beliefs and actions of individuals should be judged relative to their cultural environment.

It does not say that all cultures are equal.
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Nidhoggr
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(Original post by KingBradly)
If you believe that every culture is equal and that you can't say one is more morally correct than the other, then there is no reason to progress our own society, as the culture of the status quo can be said to be neither better nor worse than the culture you foresee which you want to progress towards.
Yes, you've misinterpreted what it means to be a moral relativist.

Moral relativism would say yes, it's not morally right or wrong to progress one culture over another, but that doesnt mean you cant or shouldnt progress any cultures.

Basically, moral relativism says nothing is right or wrong, so you're free to do what you want.
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KingBradly
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(Original post by Nidhoggr)
Yes, you've misinterpreted what it means to be a moral relativist.

Moral relativism would say yes, it's not morally right or wrong to progress one culture over another, but that doesnt mean you cant or shouldnt progress any cultures.

Basically, moral relativism says nothing is right or wrong, so you're free to do what you want.
Yeh free, but there's no moral reason to progress the culture. While a lot of progressive would argue their is.

You're just beating round the bush. You can see the point I'm making.
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KingBradly
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(Original post by offhegoes)
Cultural relativism is the idea that the beliefs and actions of individuals should be judged relative to their cultural environment.

It does not say that all cultures are equal.
But when you think about it, it does, because it's essentially saying that the ideas of right and wrong can only exist within the context of the culture of the individual living in it. So there is no right and wrong beyond the culture you've been brought up in. So no culture is more right or wrong than the other, because their are no universal values. So there is no reason to progress, because the rights and wrongs of the future you envision can be no more correct than the rights and wrongs of the culture of the status quo.

I'm sure you can work this all out for yourself and you're just trying to deflect the fairly obvious truth of the OP.
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1420787
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(Original post by KingBradly)
Yeh free, but there's no moral reason to progress the culture. While a lot of progressive would argue their is.

You're just beating round the bush. You can see the point I'm making.
Your point was that one "cannot" be both a moral relativist and progressive. Ignoring all the gaps in your understanding of the vocabulary you are using it still doesn't really follow.

Believing that there is universal truth of what is "good" and "bad" is not the same as not wanting civilisation to progress.
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KingBradly
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(Original post by offhegoes)
Your point was that one "cannot" be both a moral relativist and progressive. Ignoring all the gaps in your understanding of the vocabulary you are using it still doesn't really follow.

Believing that there is universal truth of what is "good" and "bad" is not the same as not wanting civilisation to progress.
Yeh, I know. What are you arguing against? Most utilitarians wanted civilisation to progress. The point I'm making is that you can't be a cultural relativist and argue that there are "correct" moral reasons for the culture to progress.
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1420787
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(Original post by KingBradly)
Yeh, I know. What are you arguing against? Most utilitarians wanted civilisation to progress. The point I'm making is that you can't be a cultural relativist and argue that there are "correct" moral reasons for the culture to progress.
Ignoring your continued misunderstanding of what cultural relativism is, trying to interpret what you are actually trying to say, then broadly speaking such a person wouldn't aruge that there are "correct" moral reasons for a culture to progress.

But that is not actually what it means to be progressive....
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KingBradly
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(Original post by offhegoes)
Ignoring your continued misunderstanding of what cultural relativism is, trying to interpret what you are actually trying to say, then broadly speaking such a person wouldn't aruge that there are "correct" moral reasons for a culture to progress.

But that is not actually what it means to be progressive....
I don't think you're anywhere near as intelligent as you think you are. You keep falsely alluding to knowledge you clearly don't have. I'm using "cultural relativist" completely correctly here; it's you who doesn't seem to have either a grasp of the concept or a grasp of my argument. Any kind of progression in culture surely must come from a moral basis unless it is entirely and overtly selfish. There can be no moral basis to being a progressive if one also believes that "right" and "wrong" only exist within the context of the dominant culture a person is brought up in (which is what cultural relativism means), because the values of the status quo culture can be said to be no more "right" or "wrong" than the culture you want to progress it into because their are no universal values to judge them by. End of discussion.
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1420787
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(Original post by KingBradly)
I don't think you're anywhere near as intelligent as you think you are. You keep falsely alluding to knowledge you clearly don't have. I'm using "cultural relativist" completely correctly here; it's you who doesn't seem to have either a grasp of the concept or a grasp of my argument.
The last time I checked, and believe me I did need to check given your fluid definitions, you implied cultural relativism means the believe that there is not such thing as "good" and "bad" in terms of morality. Indeed this would need to be your definition of it for it to then follow that such a person could not subsequently believe that there is a moral incentive for cultures to progress.

However, that isn't what cultural relativism is. Google it. Check wikipedia. If you still think you're in the right then show me the source that demonstrates it. I'm not the only person in this thread to tell you that you are using vocabulary you don't fully understand.

Any kind of progression in culture surely must come from a moral basis unless it is entirely and overtly selfish.
Not at all.

There can be no moral basis to being a progressive if one also believes that "right" and "wrong" only exist within the context of the dominant culture a person is brought up in
Such a person clearly has a moral
framework, so why can they not apply that moral framework to cultural progress?

(which is what cultural relativism means)
That's one quite simple interpretation of it.

because the values of the status quo culture can be said to be no more "right" or "wrong" than the culture you want to progress it into because their are no universal values to judge them by. End of discussion.
Perhaps I'll leave and if you keep moving the goalposts of your original argument for long enough you'll score some points?
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Retired_Messiah
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Watching people argue over something you have no understanding of at all is more fun than I'd anticipated.
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KingBradly
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(Original post by offhegoes)
The last time I checked, and believe me I did need to check given your fluid definitions, you implied cultural relativism means the believe that there is not such thing as "good" and "bad" in terms of morality. Indeed this would need to be your definition of it for it to then follow that such a person could not subsequently believe that there is a moral incentive for cultures to progress.

However, that isn't what cultural relativism is. Google it. Check wikipedia. If you still think you're in the right then show me the source that demonstrates it. I'm not the only person in this thread to tell you that you are using vocabulary you don't fully understand.



Not at all.



Such a person clearly has a moral
framework, so why can they not apply that moral framework to cultural progress?



That's one quite simple interpretation of it.



Perhaps I'll leave and if you keep moving the goalposts of your original argument for long enough you'll score some points?
You're a leftist trying to dodge the fairly obvious point I'm making, as leftists always do. Stop weaselling out of the argument.
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markreed
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(Original post by KingBradly)
You're a leftist trying to dodge the fairly obvious point I'm making, as leftists always do. Stop weaselling out of the argument.
For what its worth I see the point your trying to make.

I think that cultural relativism can act as a kind of red tape because it can become impossible to criticise someone else's practices in the name of "well its okay in the context of their culture". However, scarification is an example that I think illustrates why this doesn't work at all.

I mean, in the UK mutilating a child as some sort of ceremony celebrating a coming of age would be seen as child abuse, yet in other cultures its perfectly normal.

Thus cultural relativism in that example alone has prevented us from progressing the right that all people have to not be harmed unjustly.

There needs to be a distinction between respecting another culture, and blind acceptance of it. In my opinion cultural relativism can all too easily be an advocate for the latter. There need to be some absolutes.
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1420787
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(Original post by KingBradly)
You're a leftist trying to dodge the fairly obvious point I'm making, as leftists always do. Stop weaselling out of the argument.
I'm arguing exactly on point, which is not that easy given how ill defined your point is. If you want to state an argument using the language of philosophy and logic then I'm afraid waving your hands vaguely and saying "you get what I mean!" is hardly the way to go.
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anosmianAcrimony
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Watch me.
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