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    (Original post by **noooni**)
    Your name is Greg?!
    I dont know why i always thought you were a girl.... :eek:
    Nope, use the blokes loos n all

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    (Original post by oldthrashbarg)
    Looking merely at Cameron's 'noises' on anything is naive, and extremely shortsighted. You have to take into account the environmental implications of his fundamental politics, and the inherent inability of his ideology to ever provide a general solution to environmental problems (and any solution HAS to be universal). Unless you are of the opinion that he is changing the Conservative party's politics in general (the way Blair changed Labour's), then aiding the Conservatives is a betrayal of social and environmental issues, in favour of degenerative Capitalism.
    I'm not saying that I might not end up with eg on my face on this. but Zac Goldsmith is co-charing an environmental and wellbeing policy group and is on their 'gold list' of candidates. He isn't going to be one to be quiet on the issue, especially when he runs the ecologist magazine

    As for a universal solution to environmental problems, small is beautiful. There may have to a (near) universal consensus that something must be done. But what must be done will be different in different areas, depending on a large number of factors (ie alternative energy usage)
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    (Original post by notyourpunk)
    Umm I think not. Misguided or not the planet would be in a much better state if they ruled the world rather than neoliberal organisations like the WTO, IMF who pay scant regard to the planet.
    So you propose we get rid of the WTO, IMF, and other neoliberal organisations by joining the tories. Ahem.

    MB
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    So you're just stating your opinion without backing it up, but telling us that you don't want us to reply.
    I'm freely stating my opinion and telling notyourpunk that I'm not likely to get involved in a debate right now as I don't want him to waste his time while putting together a long argument like he did for the tory thing. that's it, nothing more.
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    (Original post by notyourpunk)
    As for a universal solution to environmental problems, small is beautiful. There may have to a (near) universal consensus that something must be done. But what must be done will be different in different areas, depending on a large number of factors (ie alternative energy usage)
    Surely localisation is antithetical to free market economics.

    MB
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    (Original post by Honza)
    I am completely fed up with this environmental propaganda..my german textbooks could be called 'environmental science'..actually, not, because it's not a science but propaganda - it's promoting a biased opinion which happens to be 'fashionable' at the moment.

    seriously I believe that this issue is given far, far bigger importance than it actually has..including falsification of research just for the sake of people who want to prove that we are heading to the armageddon..but lets not start a discussion, I've had enough of these and can't be really bothered to present my arguments once more.

    if I don't miss my offer and find the money I need somehow, we might discuss it face-to-face once I'm at cambridge.
    One your last point, cambridge have a number of bursarial schemes and other things to help keep you here, which is only matched by oxford. if you get a place you should not have to leave becuase of finances. I struggle but manage.

    On your point of the ideology and fashion.
    A) its a scientific point of view, whether it is right or not is a different matter. This is becuase the research can be falsified (in Karl Popper's meaning of the word rather than your use of the word Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability)
    On your meaning of falsifiability, well I don't doubt that some research is made to fit the facts and there is a certain level of 'cargo cult science' out there. However the majority of research that points to climate change not being an issue comes from researchers whose funders should be examined, shall we say.

    As for the fashionable part of the argument, well I hardly see how environmnentalists telling peoplr they can't own two cars, can't fly more than once in their life, can't eat foreign food etc etc is in any sense fashionable. Of course it is to a few of those "lets escape materialsm types" but not to many other people
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    thanks for the information about bursaries, I've already researched quite a lot and hopefully be fine. the only thing I regret is that have I lived/studied in the UK for a one more year, I would be entitled for the maintance loan which would sort it out.

    just quickly to your arguments..have you read/heard about the recent case of research being fake? I think it was in south korea, something to do with DNA research..everybody in the world believed that it was amazing breaktrought until they found out, several months later, that the bloke falsified (I think I'm using the right word here) most of his outcomes.

    I meant 'fashionable' in the sense of
    a) children being taught this in a propaganda way, without a broader picture information and different opinions
    b) this topic getting far more attention in media than it deserves
    c) this social pressure for being 'environmentally friendly' which means that not many people are brave enough to say that they have different views/don't care.
    d) eventually it causes paradoxes and absurdities like businesses spending actually 70%+ of their environmental-protection-budges on advertisement actually promoting them being environmental-friendly, because it's 'fashionable' to be like that.
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    Did anyone see that story that trees worsen global warming?

    Just shows - we have NO idea how our planet works. Why are we therefore trying to control it?

    And notyourpunk - I know Conservatives, I have worked with Conservatives, and you, sir, are no Conservative.
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    (Original post by Honza)
    thanks for the information about bursaries, I've already researched quite a lot and hopefully be fine. the only thing I regret is that have I lived/studied in the UK for a one more year, I would be entitled for the maintance loan which would sort it out.

    just quickly to your arguments..have you read/heard about the recent case of research being fake? I think it was in south korea, something to do with DNA research..everybody in the world believed that it was amazing breaktrought until they found out, several months later, that the bloke falsified (I think I'm using the right word here) most of his outcomes.

    I meant 'fashionable' in the sense of
    a) children being taught this in a propaganda way, without a broader picture information and different opinions
    b) this topic getting far more attention in media than it deserves
    c) this social pressure for being 'environmentally friendly' which means that not many people are brave enough to say that they have different views/don't care.
    d) eventually it causes paradoxes and absurdities like businesses spending actually 70%+ of their environmental-protection-budges on advertisement actually promoting them being environmental-friendly, because it's 'fashionable' to be like that.
    I have heard about that research, that cannot be compared to climate change where there are hundreds if not thousnads of researchers who state that climate change is a danger. Using your logic here the ones we have to be careful of are the ones who say climate change is not a danger and come up with groundbreaking research to say why. This is becuase there are so few of them that their research cannot necessarily be correlated and corroborated, which was the case with the South Korean DNA researcher. He was a 'pioneer/leader' in the field which is why he got away with it. Inciidentally did you know a number of Bush adminstration officials got caught changing the wordings of scientific reports in a congressional report so that taken in that context they said that climate change was not a danger when the original research actuallly indicated otherwise.

    On your points b,c, and d
    a) children also get taught that pluto is the 9th planet. There is far less certainty amongst astronomists as to whether it is a planet than there is amongst environmentalists that there is climate change. Children get taught that all races are the same and we shouldn't be racist when there is some evidence that black people have lower IQs than white people. These are some of the areas where children are taught in an 'ideological manner' when there is no conclusive evidence one way or another. (NB I disagree with the evidence that suggests black people are not as clever as white people but there we go). At the end of the day the accepted scientific view is that climate change is happening. If 99% of scientists said it wasn't happening then it wuldn't get taught. And you kind of have to spell things out to a kid. The Pluto example a good example of this

    b) well when there are indications that events such as Katrina, rising sea levels that are flooding many pacific islands, destruction of coral reefs, how more environmental protection of mangrove swamps could have saved thousands of lives during the south east asian tsunami

    c) thats complete crap, apart from environment in the most local sense of 'do not litter, pick up dog poo' there is very little social pressure to foce people to do other things. Recycling is encouraged but when was the last time you felt bad for not recycling as much as your neighbours. As for being fashionable, enviromental concerns came something like 7th in most opinion polls as to what was the most important issue during the election (crime, health, pensions, the EU etc etc are more important to most voters). That hardly makes it a fashionable thing.

    d) Can you give me an example of a company with that, as I haven't heard of it. When I see some more information i can answer this point
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    out of interest, are you allowed to be an environmentalist and drive a car?
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    (Original post by musicbloke)
    Surely localisation is antithetical to free market economics.

    MB
    Its actually more of a problem for centralised bureaucratic systems often provided for by left wing options. And it isn't quite localisation in the sense I think you mean it.
    A free market economist would have no problem with say wind farms and H.E.P. in scotland, while in london you might want biomass and solar panels.
    Our centralised national grid at the moment is incredibly inefficient at getting energy from one point to another without losing tonnes. Localised power sources are actually cheaper in the long run, and also makes us less of a target for terrorist attacks. I don't see what a free market economist would say is the problem with this (unless obviously they don't believe in global warming) - i dare say they would come up with less issues than a one size fits all centralised economy would do

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    (Original post by Niccolo)
    out of interest, are you allowed to be an environmentalist and drive a car?
    personally I don't drive and I try not to fly at all, haven't for quite a while now. But yes you can, Zac Goldsmith owns a care, so do both green members of the london assembly.
    i think with environmentalism you have to make the distinction between those who believe that economic growth and environmental protection can go hand in hand (ie through waste reduction, reduced energy usage, increased health) and those who believe that to save the planet means we need to take a step back in our material wealth levels. I fall into the first camp, some environmentalists would disagree
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    (Original post by Camford)
    Group project. I mean, you can technically do everything in these 3 years on pwf. But, having a computer of your own when you are do group project gives you more flexibility on the tools you can use. I don't know how often pwf does software updates. Last time I checked, it's still using eclipse 3.0 which doesn't support java 5.

    as for what I can no long do on pwf... play any games.
    but eclipse 4 is just an unstable mess when i tried it (well it didnt agree with the environment which we were developing in for my job anyway).

    but point taken.
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    (Original post by definenew)
    Did anyone see that story that trees worsen global warming?

    Just shows - we have NO idea how our planet works. Why are we therefore trying to control it?

    And notyourpunk - I know Conservatives, I have worked with Conservatives, and you, sir, are no Conservative.
    I think saying we have no idea is a complete complete overgeneralisation. I don't doubt there is much to be refined or even started agian. I also think that possibly 30 years down the line or whatever we might laugh at how silly we all were. But then in 30 years time if it is happening (and its not a big if) and its too late to do much about it might be somewhat cold comfort to say well we weren't sure at the time. We have to go on the precautionary principle on this one I believe
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    As much as a joke the Green Party is, Darren Johnson is a bloody good bloke (he's a councillor in my borough - Lewisham).

    Just thought I'd add that...

    *gets coat*
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    notyourpunk - I've warned you not to waste your time, and I shall stick to my words - I seriously don't want to start a debate - there was a time when I enjoyed it, and time to time I'm in that mood again, but not now. I know most of your points, you'll know most of mine..each of us has something to prove the other one wrong, because if you look hard enough, you'll always find the research which will say what you want it to say.

    a complete waste of time..let's talk about weather..actually, not, there's the climate change, so it's not a good topic for the 5 o'clock tea anymore. bad luck.
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    (Original post by notyourpunk)
    I think saying we have no idea is a complete complete overgeneralisation. I don't doubt there is much to be refined or even started agian. I also think that possibly 30 years down the line or whatever we might laugh at how silly we all were. But then in 30 years time if it is happening (and its not a big if) and its too late to do much about it might be somewhat cold comfort to say well we weren't sure at the time. We have to go on the precautionary principle on this one I believe
    So we have to go on the precautionary principle because you and a bunch of other tree huggers say so?

    One minute environmentalists are telling us to plant trees because doing so cuts global warming. The next minute we're told plants cause global warming. So what do we do now, cut them down or plant some more?

    Because as far as I can see, we were planting trees to combat global warming, and now we find out that we've been (inadvertantly) causing more global warming. So, by acting on the "precautionary principle", Greg, we've ******ed up the planet even more.

    But as long as you feel better I guess that's okay.
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    (Original post by Willa)
    but eclipse 4 is just an unstable mess when i tried it (well it didnt agree with the environment which we were developing in for my job anyway).

    but point taken.
    I'm still using 3.1. I'm sure eclipse 4 doesn't exist... latest milestone release is 3.2M4.

    I'm currently spending time playing with IntelliJ IDEA... It's smaller than Eclipse... but I don't like its auto-complete features. It should be better than Eclipse, the price tag says so...
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    (Original post by **noooni**)
    Your name is Greg?!
    I dont know why i always thought you were a girl.... :eek:
    me too. lol.
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    (Original post by Camford)
    I'm still using 3.1. I'm sure eclipse 4 doesn't exist... latest milestone release is 3.2M4.

    I'm currently spending time playing with IntelliJ IDEA... It's smaller than Eclipse... but I don't like its auto-complete features. It should be better than Eclipse, the price tag says so...
    you're right, i meant 3.1 (i use 3.0.2)
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    3.1 is ok, but easily eats up 130mb of memory... that's more than Halo...
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    I think I'm giving myself a caffeine headache and term hasn't even started.

    My coffee machine is in storage in friend's room who has conveniently decided to go home. I'm definitely overcompensating with the Pro Plus...
 
 
 
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