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    Just out of curiosity NDGAARONDI are you starting uni this september in your first year? or are you continuing on from your first to your second year?
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    (Original post by Dajo123)
    Just out of curiosity NDGAARONDI are you starting uni this september in your first year? or are you continuing on from your first to your second year?
    Hopefully I should be starting university in Septmeber this year. What made you think I already have had my first year at university? j/w
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Hopefully I should be starting university in Septmeber this year. What made you think I already have had my first year at university? j/w
    Okay, no i was just wondering because the law subjects you've previously mentioned in threads are the same as the modules usually studied in the first year at uni, hence i arrived at totally the wrong conclusion
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    (Original post by Dajo123)
    Okay, no i was just wondering because the law subjects you've previously mentioned in threads are the same as the modules usually studied in the first year at uni, hence i arrived at totally the wrong conclusion
    Ah someone has been keeping an eye out for me lol

    My A level choices have helped me achieve a good foundation ready for first year modules - law and politics. So I have some knowledge of legal system, criminal law and constitutional law. The only topic I have not done much at all is contract, which I am meant to be reading up right now

    I read through the arguments for and against A level law and thought I'd be better off by doing it. Helped me decide if law was really my thing, I think it is

    If I studied the topics you described at university I would hope they'd be a lot more detailed and academic
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    Well, i know you're gonna do well as you seem on da ball so theres no point in me saying good luck, but ill say it anyway good luck
    But as the days go by i find my excitment at starting in sept being slowly replaced by a nervous apprehension.........
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    (Original post by Dajo123)
    Well, i know you're gonna do well as you seem on da ball so theres no point in me saying good luck, but ill say it anyway good luck
    Doing well = a decent 1st nothing else Thank you for the good luck anyway

    (Original post by Dajo123)
    But as the days go by i find my excitment at starting in sept being slowly replaced by a nervous apprehension.........
    Why do you say this?
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Why do you say this?
    I Thought I would be filled with nothing but excitement and anticipation that I am finally going to university to do law, and I have been. But the more I read in the press, on government websites, Uni websites, forums and hear from friends, the more disturbed I become at how snobby, classist, racist and exclusive the Law sector seems. While I still love the subject I don’t know if i want to mix with these types of people.
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    (Original post by Dajo123)
    I Thought I would be filled with nothing but excitement and anticipation that I am finally going to university to do law, and I have been. But the more I read in the press, on government websites, Uni websites, forums and hear from friends, the more disturbed I become at how snobby, classist, racist and exclusive the Law sector seems. While I still love the subject I don’t know if i want to mix with these types of people.
    This is the reason why I never considered Oxford, even if I could get the grades at first. I don't wish to face with this situation whilst studying, I could end up leaving and this means another applicant could have had my place and made better use of it.

    I believe the barrister profession tends to be less classist etc as you described. I'm not totally sure on figures but I've been to the Bar Council's website and have seen disciplinary records in Michael Zander's Cases and Materials book for ELS, and they are better than solicitors.

    I'm pretty sure that other people have thought the same as you for law, but it's not just law that has this. I'm sure politics does too!

    I would be interested to hear some evidence to your claims. It's not that I'm doubting you, just I like to see for myself.

    Never stop your love for a subject for reasons you have described above, you may regret it.

    We need the people of the likes of me and you to change it otherwise we'd get nowhere!
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    We need the people of the likes of me and you to change it otherwise we'd get nowhere!
    awww, thanx

    I shall gather some articles from various websites i have seen and msg them to you, but it shall have 2 be another day as at the moment im about to doze off and do not have the mental (or physical) energy to do this.
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    (Original post by Dajo123)
    awww, thanx

    I shall gather some articles from various websites i have seen and msg them to you, but it shall have 2 be another day as at the moment im about to doze off and do not have the mental (or physical) energy to do this.
    Will be looking forward to these websites
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    Hey ND, here are a few of the sites i mentioned....

    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Will be looking forward to these websites
    Classism / Elitism:
    http://www.chambersandpartners.com/c...fm?id=86&sec=3

    Racism:
    http://www.dca.gov.uk/speeches/2004/dl160604.htm
    http://www.blink.org.uk/print.asp?key=3551

    Some of the stuff i am mentioning has also come from accounts given to me by law students and discussions my Law tutor at college has started.
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    With this link http://www.chambersandpartners.com/c...fm?id=86&sec=3 it does show there is a significant amount of law firms who prefer candidates to come from certain backgrounds. However, an individual university preference is small compared to the no preference finding. I believe many years ago this gap would have been smaller i.e larger proportion of preferrences from Oxbridge etc.

    They have only focused on solicitors and have not made a comparison with barristers. It would have been nice to see one. Also the preferences seem a bit distorted. Places like Southampton are significantly higher than more or less equivalent universities. Notice that Keele is quite far down and you see so many people using league tables to help them decide their choice. Keele is quite high up, last time I saw it had an RAE (sp) of 5*A. Make what you will of this. Also for some reason UCL is above LSE, and Cardiff higher than Liverpool. The SOAS is also quite low.

    As the source says, 72% of no preference which is quite high.

    As with the LPC I would have guessed the College of Law and the BPP were in the top three. I think this is mainly due to regional biases.

    Now on to the next source http://www.dca.gov.uk/speeches/2004/dl160604.htm. As it is obvious beware of political biases on this site. Labour have recently been in rows regarding to race (that philosoper from Oxford about shops, terrorism and ID cards wanting to know if you're a Muslim, stop and search findings for police etc) so it won't be surprise that they advocate more black people into the profession.

    Just under 8% of solicitors with practising certificates in 2003 were from an ethnic minority background. In 1998, the number of ethnic minorities with a practising certificate was just under 5%. That's only 3% in six years.
    There is progess but you can never really make the legal profession a microcosm of the nations concerned. Eight percent is a good figure I believe. Just because there is a small amount of black people in a profession, doesn't necessarily mean that something has to be wrong. I went to a convention at Reading Uni few years ago about law. I never noticed any black people but there were an awful lot of those who have Islamic backgrounds, whether British Muslims or otherwise when compared to the country as a whole. Perhaps you could argue the extra amount of these people can make up for the deficit for black people? It's a well known fact that certain subjects appeal to certain backgrounds more. I don't wish to sound discriminant but when I visited Liverpool, there were a lot of oriental students exiting the electrical and electronics engineering building. Perhaps maybe not so many black people are into law? I can't really say.

    What I would like to address is the way that judges are appointed. Most are from Oxbridge etc and you see many people from different backgrounds like us or black people etc may not wish to even apply to there because of bigotry and discrimination. Once again this website mainly focuses on the solicitors route too.

    On to the third source - http://www.blink.org.uk/print.asp?key=3551.
    In 1997 the newly elected Prime Minister Tony Blair told a Labour Party conference of his concern that Britain did not have a single High Court judge or Law Lord.
    Good ol' Tony has remembered his law degree course at Oxford and the criticisms of judges when learning the English legal system. He's only concentrated on race, in particular only black people. What about white people from working class families, women, other races? How about students who graduated from well established/respectable universities but not necessarily Oxford or Cambridge? The list goes on. I think his motives on saying this are nothing more than political. Shame really because the legal profession needs a huge makeover. And I don't think that tuition fees etc are helping his cause. I feel that TB is not doing enough about this and he can do a lot more if he gets off his arse and stop visiting some strange person 4000 miles away.

    It is a fact that only one person from my background (white, working class) made it as a senior judge that I know of. He went straight to the top but his appointment was more political than judicial considering he was a Conservative Lord Chancellor at the time.

    What are your thoughts?

    I might have some more to say but this is all for now.....
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Also for some reason UCL is above LSE, and Cardiff higher than Liverpool. The SOAS is also quite low.
    Actually.......click link
    http://education.guardian.co.uk/univ...217063,00.html

    Hey, watch it…….. i am going there this september


    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Eight percent is a good figure I believe.
    Eight per cent represents ethnic Minorities as a whole, Asians, blacks, etc… To me this seems quite bad.

    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Good ol' Tony has remembered his law degree course at Oxford and the criticisms of judges when learning the English legal system. He's only concentrated on race, in particular only black people. What about white people from working class families, women, other races? How about students who graduated from well established/respectable universities but not necessarily Oxford or Cambridge? The list goes on. I think his motives on saying this are nothing more than political. Shame really because the legal profession needs a huge makeover. And I don't think that tuition fees etc are helping his cause. I feel that TB is not doing enough about this and he can do a lot more if he gets off his arse and stop visiting some strange person 4000 miles away.
    I agree with every word you have said here.

    I think this whole issue bothers me because im attracted to working for one of the so called “magic circle” firms and it pisses me off how snobby they seem, the more I find out about them. On their websites they post profiles of current trainees and there isn’t much diversity in terms of class, colour, university etc.. They all seem like clones. It’s quite depressing (I will try to find more articles of relevance)
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    (Original post by Dajo123)
    Actually.......click link
    http://education.guardian.co.uk/univ...217063,00.html
    I use The Times one Westminster is above Liverpool in there! I don't agree with some of the results and feel The Times is a more accurate description overall. Besides we have heard of the talk about league tables before.

    (Original post by Dajo123)
    Hey, watch it…….. i am going there this september
    Who Cardiff?

    (Original post by Dajo123)
    Eight per cent represents ethnic Minorities as a whole, Asians, blacks, etc… To me this seems quite bad.
    I don't know the figures off hand but we need to get figues for England and Wales, not the United Kingdom. If you find any, let me know!

    What figure would you like to see?

    I would feel that if the Oxbridge bias goes, you will have other results come in such as an increase of non-whites just by getting rid/reduce the Oxbridge bias only.

    (Original post by Dajo123)
    I think this whole issue bothers me because im attracted to working for one of the so called “magic circle” firms and it pisses me off how snobby they seem, the more I find out about them. On their websites they post profiles of current trainees and there isn’t much diversity in terms of class, colour, university etc.. They all seem like clones. It’s quite depressing (I will try to find more articles of relevance)
    I'm not really into MC stuff. Although options in commercial law, company law, intellectual property and internet law would probably point to that direction! Speaking of clones, reminds you of a former dictator who wanted blonde hair and blue eyes in his army...

    Progress is being made but I think it's quite amazing how politicians can talk about the legal profession in this way when they are by no means perfect themselves!
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    http://education.guardian.co.uk/univ....html?start=40 - TVU is above Leeds?! :confused:
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    I use The Times one I don't agree with some of the results and feel The Times is a more accurate description overall
    tut-tut-tut (only joking)

    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Who Cardiff?
    No, UCL.

    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    I don't know the figures off hand but we need to get figues for England and Wales, not the United Kingdom. If you find any, let me know!
    Will do

    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    What figure would you like to see?
    Good question...... something around the 15% mark would suffice.

    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Speaking of clones, reminds you of a former dictator who wanted blonde hair and blue eyes in his army...
    LOL
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    I just prefer The Times because they are a good newspaper for law, and so, should be good at the law bit for league tables!

    I would have thought about UCL if I had known them when making my choices along with Queen Mary's. But I think I'm better of at Liverpool than at Queen Mary's now.

    15%? Isn't this a bit too high? If you start social engineering you could end up denying a white person a place who could end up being a very good lawyer/judge who could also give the best results for ethnic minorities and others such as homosexuals etc. Something which Lord Denning did to some extent, although I know he made some stupid remarks in his book so I'm told. I am not racist however, check my posts

    I would like to see a figure approximate to England and Wales but I'm unsure of the nature of positive discrimination or otherwise should go. I'm planning on making a thread on this and other topics regarding to the legal system when the academic year returns.

    I see you have not responded to the statement I made about TVU being above Leeds in the Guardian league tables

    Any thoughts?
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    I just prefer The Times because they are a good newspaper for law, and so, should be good at the law bit for league tables!

    But the Guardian is so liberal and open-minded..... Heck i use the Times most of the time as well

    I would have thought about UCL if I had known them when making my choices along with Queen Mary's. But I think I'm better of at Liverpool than at Queen Mary's now.

    :eek: Why didn’t you know/weren’t you told about UCL???????????????

    15%? Isn't this a bit too high? If you start social engineering you could end up denying a white person a place......

    I don’t think that’s racist. I am not saying that i think we should be actively doing things to raise the ethnic mix to 15%, i just think in an ideal world it would be nice. I reckon that at around 15% we would get a vibrant mix of races, all participating in the legal profession.

    I would like to see a figure approximate to England and Wales but I'm unsure of the nature of positive discrimination or otherwise should go.

    I hate the term "positive discrimination", i am much more in favour of NO discrimination, either positive or negative.

    I see you have not responded to the statement I made about TVU being above Leeds in the Guardian league tables

    My reaction was :eek: :eek: :eek: lol, that is highly suspect. My friend applied there for law this year and she was rejected!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: I thought you were pretty much guaranteed a place there if you could tie your own shoe laces, spell your name and could afford the UCAS form processing fee.

    This is kinda cool, almost like our own little private thread.
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    (Original post by Dajo123)
    I would have thought about UCL if I had known them when making my choices along with Queen Mary's. But I think I'm better of at Liverpool than at Queen Mary's now.

    :eek: Why didn’t you know/weren’t you told about UCL???????????????
    I'm someone who is independent. My lecturer just thought I would probably know all of them. Didn't know half of them until my politics class on league tables with respect to devolution with Wales. Some of it is my fault for not actively looking for other choices though. I won't bother sacrificing a year to go to another universaity which is only minutely better than my current choice.

    (Original post by Dajo123)
    15%? Isn't this a bit too high? If you start social engineering you could end up denying a white person a place......

    I don’t think that’s racist. I am not saying that i think we should be actively doing things to raise the ethnic mix to 15%, i just think in an ideal world it would be nice. I reckon that at around 15% we would get a vibrant mix of races, all participating in the legal profession.
    In an ideal world they would be more people from non-Oxbridge backgrounds in the higher courts too though.

    (Original post by Dajo123)
    I hate the term "positive discrimination", i am much more in favour of NO discrimination, either positive or negative.
    Bust surely by trying to raise any figures regarding to qualities like race, nationality, gender etc is being discriminant according to the English dictioanry definition. I'm someone who would describe themselves as 'colourblind' but with the legal profession you can't leave it as it is right now. Okay, I'll use another term - affirmative action

    (Original post by Dajo123)
    My reaction was :eek: :eek: :eek: lol, that is highly suspect. My friend applied there for law this year and she was rejected!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: I thought you were pretty much guaranteed a place there if you could tie your own shoe laces, spell your name and could afford the UCAS form processing fee.
    A lot of people presume this. But TVU is considerably low in The Times one, although the lowest is some Scottish university I believe. Either way as long as you go to a decent university you will not waste your 3-4 years at university.

    (Original post by Dajo123)
    This is kinda cool, almost like our own little private thread.
    We're not as busy as we normally are. It's the holidays. Not heard of it?
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Didn't know half of them until my politics class on league tables with respect to devolution with Wales.
    (in a heavy welsh accent) Arrrrrre youuuuu Weeeeeeeeelsh theeeeeeen?


    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    In an ideal world they would be more people from non-Oxbridge backgrounds in the higher courts too though.
    *Rubbing hands together, with an evil smile and wicked glint in his eyes, he mutters in a low grumble*...... in an ideal world, a large hole would open up in the ground and swallow the bad ship Oxbridge and all who sail within her (the controversy )


    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    but with the legal profession you can't leave it as it is right now.
    Agreed, but the change should be achieved by trying to remove all types of discrimination, thus giving every1 a level playing field.

    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    But TVU is considerably low in The Times one....
    I think this may be due to the Guardian including value added to students, which would make sense. Better Unis require better grades, so by default will have better students who wont improve as much during their degree, coz they were already good at the start. Also, the Times take "reputation" into account; the Guardian deems this too fickle.

    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    We're not as busy as we normally are.
    Mmmmmm...... i is a newbie so I does take your word for it.
 
 
 
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