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    (Original post by Dajo123)
    (in a heavy welsh accent) Arrrrrre youuuuu Weeeeeeeeelsh theeeeeeen?

    Nope.

    *Rubbing hands together, with an evil smile and wicked glint in his eyes, he mutters in a low grumble*...... in an ideal world, a large hole would open up in the ground and swallow the bad ship Oxbridge and all who sail within her (the controversy )

    I can see this being attacked. What about LSE?

    Agreed, but the change should be achieved by trying to remove all types of discrimination, thus giving every1 a level playing field.

    This is what I believe in. Maybe we could deal with background and class before race?

    I think this may be due to the Guardian including value added to students, which would make sense. Better Unis require better grades, so by default will have better students who wont improve as much during their degree, coz they were already good at the start. Also, the Times take "reputation" into account; the Guardian deems this too fickle.

    Better universities don't always require better grades. It's more of a trend rather than a rule. City bumped their offer to ABB from BBB so I told them to take a hike and came across Liverpool who are above City in both reputation and The Times league tables and offer the same grades. For some reason Open University is not included in any league tables, they have a good law programme I hear.

    Mmmmmm...... i is a newbie so I does take your word for it.

    Wait 'til next May and you will find out!
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    I can see this being attacked. What about LSE?

    (rubbing palms together etc..) one evil at a time my friend........ one evil at a time...... MWWAHH-HA-HA-HA!!!!!!!!! (evil laugh)

    This is what I believe in. Maybe we could deal with background and class before race?

    They are all the same to me.

    Better universities don't always require better grades.......

    Point taken, Liverpool is diamond mate (eastend exppression, although i aint from eastend london)

    YIKES!!!!!!!! 2:17AM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:
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    (Original post by Dajo123)
    I can see this being attacked. What about LSE?

    (rubbing palms together etc..) one evil at a time my friend........ one evil at a time...... MWWAHH-HA-HA-HA!!!!!!!!! (evil laugh)

    Is King's College next on your list? lol

    This is what I believe in. Maybe we could deal with background and class before race?

    They are all the same to me.

    What about nationality etc? It might be better to ask Parliament itself to do so as well.

    Better universities don't always require better grades.......

    Point taken, Liverpool is diamond mate (eastend exppression, although i aint from eastend london)

    Well they don't seem to be in the top 20/elite section but they seem to be respectable. Two law lords I know of graduated from there

    YIKES!!!!!!!! 2:17AM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

    Yes get to sleep
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Yes get to sleep
    Till we debate again!!, my UKL deabating friend!!, LOL (self deprevation does strange things to me)
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    That meant to read SLEEP DEPRIVATION!!! Gawd!! im far too tired, goodnite all
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    (Original post by Dajo123)
    I don’t think that’s racist. I am not saying that i think we should be actively doing things to raise the ethnic mix to 15%, i just think in an ideal world it would be nice. I reckon that at around 15% we would get a vibrant mix of races, all participating in the legal profession.
    You acknowledge that ethnic minorities make up 8% of our population. You then assert that 8% of such minorities in the legal profession is too low a figure. Clearly, you don't believe in fair representation for minorities. You believe in over-representation, while at the same time tacitly acknowledging that it's acceptable for white people to be under-represented and therefore discriminated against. You also talk of your distaste for positive discrimination. I would be interested to know how you would see that minorities are over-represented while at the same time avoiding any such discrimination. Talk about double standards...

    Just to put the nail in the coffin of any point you may have had, I should also mention that 17% of those entering the legal profession today are from ethnic minorities. Evidently, this figure over-represents minorities, even surpassing the 'vibrant' 15% that you would lobby for.
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    (Original post by muncrun)
    You acknowledge that ethnic minorities make up 8% of our population. You then assert that 8% of such minorities in the legal profession is too low a figure. Clearly, you don't believe in fair representation for minorities. You believe in over-representation, while at the same time tacitly acknowledging that it's acceptable for white people to be under-represented and therefore discriminated against. You also talk of your distaste for positive discrimination. I would be interested to know how you would see that minorities are over-represented while at the same time avoiding any such discrimination. Talk about double standards....
    :rolleyes:

    I am fully aware that ethnic minorities make up 9% of the population and my figure of 15% was not based on logic but on the pleasure it gives me to mix with people from different countries and races. It’s a shame you didn’t pick up on this and attacked what was basically something I thought would be….. ‘nice’, not something i think should be socially engineered (for the reasons you mentioned).
    If you actually read the thread properly you would have noticed that i said i don’t think we should strive to make the legal profession ethnically diverse, we should merely remove ALL prejudices to give everyone a level playing field.

    (Original post by muncrun)
    Just to put the nail in the coffin of any point you may have had, I should also mention that 17% of those entering the legal profession today are from ethnic minorities. Evidently, this figure over-represents minorities, even surpassing the 'vibrant' 15% that you would lobby for
    :rolleyes: Actually.........

    "Currently 20% of Bar pupils are from an ethnic minority. And 19.5% of pupillages go to ethnic minorities" http://www.dca.gov.uk/speeches/2004/dl160604.htm

    :rolleyes: I noticed that you said, "entering the legal profession", what do you mean by this? students? or people who actually hold a practising certificate. Because i can assure you that the percentage of ethnic minorities who manage to find work will be far far less than the above stated 20%, why? Discrimination.

    There is real inequality that exists in the legal profession that goes against class, sex, race etc.. But this cannot be understood by merely looking at how many ethnic minorities or women live in England and then how many are in the legal profession. Hence i find your viewpoint rather rudimentary, ignorant and simplistic. How many black or female Q.C's are there? How many black or female High Court judges are there? How many black or female city lawyers are there? How many black or female Law Lords are there? How many black or female District Judges are there? How many black or female Circuit Judges are there?.... the answer not very many and certainly not 8%. Your ignorant and simplistic take on the diversity within our legal profession leads you to belive ethnic minorities are over-represented, while the facts say they, (and women) are by no means fairly represented in ALL aspects of the legal profession, but in fact under represented. Have a little peak for yourself................ http://www.dca.gov.uk/judicial/ethmin.htm

    I suggest next time you read a little bit more before attacking my comments (and do try to back up your points with up to date statistics) :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


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    (Original post by Dajo123)
    :rolleyes:

    I am fully aware that ethnic minorities make up 9% of the population and my figure of 15% was not based on logic but on the pleasure it gives me to mix with people from different countries and races. It’s a shame you didn’t pick up on this and attacked what was basically something I thought would be….. ‘nice’, not something i think should be socially engineered (for the reasons you mentioned).
    If you actually read the thread properly you would have noticed that i said i don’t think we should strive to make the legal profession ethnically diverse, we should merely remove ALL prejudices to give everyone a level playing field.



    :rolleyes: Actually.........

    "Currently 20% of Bar pupils are from an ethnic minority. And 19.5% of pupillages go to ethnic minorities" http://www.dca.gov.uk/speeches/2004/dl160604.htm

    :rolleyes: I noticed that you said, "entering the legal profession", what do you mean by this? students? or people who actually hold a practising certificate. Because i can assure you that the percentage of ethnic minorities who manage to find work will be far far less than the above stated 20%, why? Discrimination.

    There is real inequality that exists in the legal profession that goes against class, sex, race etc.. But this cannot be understood by merely looking at how many ethnic minorities or women live in England and then how many are in the legal profession. Hence i find your viewpoint rather rudimentary, ignorant and simplistic. How many black or female Q.C's are there? How many black or female High Court judges are there? How many black or female city lawyers are there? How many black or female Law Lords are there? How many black or female District Judges are there? How many black or female Circuit Judges are there?.... the answer not very many and certainly not 8%. Your ignorant and simplistic take on the diversity within our legal profession leads you to belive ethnic minorities are over-represented, while the facts say they, (and women) are by no means fairly represented in ALL aspects of the legal profession, but in fact under represented. Have a little peak for yourself................ http://www.dca.gov.uk/judicial/ethmin.htm

    I suggest next time you read a little bit more before attacking my comments (and do try to back up your points with up to date statistics) :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


    .
    It fills me with confidence that your pleasures are derived from detached, distorted and illogical views of the world. Why, if your ‘nicety’ has nothing to do with logic, would you like to see only 15% from minorities if you enjoy their company so much? That you even suggest a figure at all implies your reasoning is in fact linked with logic, as it suggests you are tacitly aware of the impracticalities of even greater over-representation.

    Anyway, this failing of yours pales in comparison to your ignorant and simplistic take on diversity within the legal system. You tediously hand me rhetorical questions about black and female people in the profession. I am surprised that someone of your supposed intellect hadn’t picked up on the realistic situation that confronts diversity. My assertions have been non-retrospective, forward-looking ones that look to the state of the legal profession in the future time-frame that will concern us – the people who are currently entering it. Your assertions and somewhat personal attacks on me are based on the premise that my reasoning is retrospective.

    Let’s look at exactly what I mean by this. A student of about 30–40 years ago may now be part of the selection pool of judicial candidates. So let’s go back 30-40 years. It is a fact that back then there were, for whatever reason, few people of ethnic minority backgrounds (and women etc) entering higher education. Therefore few went on to become lawyers and fewer still went on to become judges. This is why the current figures from the judiciary are like they are. It is a result of the state of the legal profession years ago. Now skip forward to today. The opportunities for a member of an ethnic minority to find their way on to the legal career ladder are plentiful. It can be compared to trickle down economics: you invest today and tomorrow there will be results. However, it does take time, and that time is in the form of the 30 years or so it takes for a student to qualify as a barrister, and for a barrister to ‘qualify’ to become a judge.

    Let us relate this logic (I know this is a concept you seem shy from) back to my assertions. I did not say that the legal profession never discriminated. I said that it doesn’t today. Had you taken the time to appreciate that it takes time for a person to graduate up the career ladder, you might have realised that your argument was so chronically flawed before you came to post it. Now, before you rush off to find your latest facts and figures, in future do try and ensure they are of relevance.

    And so, in a similar vain to yourself, do try to form an opinion that is carved from intellect and not merely from facts and figures, before you have the temerity to call me ignorant and simplistic.
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    (Original post by muncrun)
    It fills me with confidence that your pleasures are derived from detached, distorted and illogical views of the world. Why, if your ‘nicety’ has nothing to do with logic, would you like to see only 15% from minorities if you enjoy their company so much? That you even suggest a figure at all implies your reasoning is in fact linked with logic, as it suggests you are tacitly aware of the impracticalities of even greater over-representation
    You’re taking me too seriously.

    I was asked for a figure and plucked 15% out of the air. I was born and bred in London where ethnic minorities make up over 25% of the population, i have friends from nearly ever country on the planet, hence if asked a question like the one i was asked, i think i am bound to come up with a higher figure than most. Also, my figure is representative of the kind of mix i see around me every day. Put the remark into context and you will realise it was merely half-awake moan and groan.

    (Original post by muncrun)
    You tediously hand me rhetorical questions about black and female people in the profession.
    Backed up with very real and up to date links to all the relevant statistics supporting my rhetoric.

    (Original post by muncrun)
    before you have the temerity to call me ignorant and simplistic.
    I did not attack you personally; i merely attacked your viewpoint on this subject by deeming it simplistic and ignorant, (and explained that you should back up your arguments with links as i have).

    (Original post by muncrun)
    Let us relate this logic (I know this is a concept you seem shy from) back to my assertions. I did not say that the legal profession
    Although this does seem like a personal attack, i am sure

    (Original post by muncrun)
    A student of about 30–40 years ago may now be part of the selection pool of judicial candidates. So let’s go back 30-40 years.
    It does not take this long for a Barrister (or solicitor) to become eligible for appointment to the Judiciary.

    (Original post by muncrun)
    My assertions have been non-retrospective, forward-looking ones that look to the state of the legal profession in the future time-frame that will concern us – the people who are currently entering it. Your assertions and somewhat personal attacks on me are based on the premise that my reasoning is retrospective.
    Your original post started off by trying to rubbish everything i have said, “just to put the nail in the coffin of any argument you may have had” is how you put it, when essentially all i had said was there is currently a lot of prejudice in the legal profession and its saddening (backed up by a lot of evidence). You did not and still have not brought any new evidence into this discussion to “put the nail in the coffin” of my claim that the legal profession today does not fairly represent ethnic minorities. I am very aware and had already accepted that the profession is currently changing (in spite of your snide remark I do have logic), but was merely moaning about its current state, which obviously pissed you off. However, i am not sure if you acknowledge that currently not enough is being done to widen diversity (im not being rude) among ALL members of society. Anyway, race is such a boring issue and i am just as much concerned with women, class, the disabled etc....

    P.S. I am not personally attacking you and apologise if you feel I have, this is a debate forum and this thread is currently in danger of descending into a poorly articulated rant, again, I did not mean to seem rude.
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    Sorry if I was coming across as being hard-nosed. No personal offences intended either, mate (although admittedly it does seem that way!). I got carried away with aggressive-style debating. :rolleyes:

    Anyway, as much as I want to reply and disagree with some of the things you've just said, I think I'll leave it till tomorrow - it's been a pretty long day for me!

    Again, sorry for any offence.
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    (Original post by muncrun)
    Sorry if I was coming across as being hard-nosed. No personal offences intended either, mate (although admittedly it does seem that way!). I got carried away with aggressive-style debating. :rolleyes:

    Anyway, as much as I want to reply and disagree with some of the things you've just said, I think I'll leave it till tomorrow - it's been a pretty long day for me!

    Again, sorry for any offence.
    Cool, me too.
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    I'm a new member of the UK-Learning Forums and the UKL Law Society. I've studied Law at A Level, with Option 2 Criminal Law and I'm awaiting my results on the 19th August. I hope to study Law at Northumbria University which offers a 4 year exempting degree (exempts you from the BVC or LPC because you do it alongside the degree, rather than seperately afterwards) in September.

    I haven't seen Northumbria mentioned anywhere on the law board and wondered what the general concensus about this Uni is, in regards to studying law? My offer is ABB. I chose Northumbria as my firm choice, over Newcastle which offered AAB because I visited both and was much more impressed with the atmosphere and facilities offered there and also the lecturers at Newcastle were very stuffy!

    Leanne
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    (Original post by Lilac_Sparkles)
    I'm a new member of the UK-Learning Forums and the UKL Law Society. I've studied Law at A Level, with Option 2 Criminal Law and I'm awaiting my results on the 19th August. I hope to study Law at Northumbria University which offers a 4 year exempting degree (exempts you from the BVC or LPC because you do it alongside the degree, rather than seperately afterwards) in September.

    I haven't seen Northumbria mentioned anywhere on the law board and wondered what the general concensus about this Uni is, in regards to studying law? My offer is ABB. I chose Northumbria as my firm choice, over Newcastle which offered AAB because I visited both and was much more impressed with the atmosphere and facilities offered there and also the lecturers at Newcastle were very stuffy!

    Leanne
    I havent heard much about said uni, but you say you liked it when you went to the open day, so i would say you are proably making a good choice.

    Try these three links, (sorry if you already have seen them )


    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/section/0,,716,00.html

    http://education.guardian.co.uk/univ...488282,00.html

    http://www.qaa.ac.uk/
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    (Original post by Dajo123)
    I havent heard much about said uni, but you say you liked it when you went to the open day, so i would say you are proably making a good choice.
    Northumbria is one of the newer universities which is why some people haven't heard much about it. I agree that I am probably making the right choice. I did not want to move from home to go to University and I live in the North East. I was worried that my preference to stay at home would limit the standard of the universities I could choose from and originally Newcastle was my main interest but after visiting I was very disheartened. As soon as I visited Northumbria my gut instint told me it was the one for me and I was very impressed with the mock courtrooms it offers, the law library and the Student Law Office which is a working solicitors office offering free legal advice and representation to the general public. I will be working there under the supervision of a solicitor in my third and fourth years of my degree. Northumbria is the only law school in the UK to offer an exempting scheme and I was impressed with the practical side to its degree programme. But I am just worried that my eagerness to study there has not disadvantaged me in terms of career prospects as I know many law firms look at where your degree comes from.

    Leanne
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    i think im lost...Could someone point me to the UKL medicine soceity plz
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    Jaq, http://www.uk-learning.net/t47568.html
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    (Original post by Lilac_Sparkles)
    But I am just worried that my eagerness to study there has not disadvantaged me in terms of career prospects as I know many law firms look at where your degree comes from.
    Leanne
    Its generally accepted there exists some snobbery in the legal profession relating to which university graduates went to, whether or not this will apply to you depends on the type of firm you apply to work at (assuming you want to be a Solicitor). To be honest you are at a disadvantage for not going to Oxbridge (like most of us ). But, if you aim for and gain a 2:1 or 1st class degree then you shouldn’t have too many problems. However, in order to have the best chance of getting a 2:1/1st you need to be in a learning environment in which you feel comfortable and is supportive, thus allowing you to academically flourish (you seem to have found this). Try having a look at a variety of websites from different firms that appeal to you in order to gauge what they will expect of you.
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    (Original post by Dajo123)
    To be honest you are at a disadvantage for not going to Oxbridge (like most of us ). But, if you aim for and gain a 2:1 or 1st class degree then you shouldn’t have too many problems. However, in order to have the best chance of getting a 2:1/1st you need to be in a learning environment in which you feel comfortable and is supportive, thus allowing you to academically flourish (you seem to have found this).
    Thing is, would you really want to associate yourself where this snobbery is around? I wouldn't. You see you should really go for the university which suits you the most and do not go by reputation. I have heard of drop outs who go for reputation and not because they genuinely like it there. It's even possible that you could get a 2:1 because you're not flourishing so much at say Oxford, but could have got a first at UCL easily. You have to be there for 3 or 4 years, so really this is important.
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    It's even possible that you could get a 2:1 because you're not flourishing so much at say Oxford, but could have got a first at UCL easily. You have to be there for 3 or 4 years, so really this is important.
    :confused: Thats what i trying to get through to her.......
 
 
 
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