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    As we all know, this is Independence Day for America,

    however, I think we should also take time to remember the thousands of British soldiers who travelled many miles away from their families and homes to fight for a cause which was inevitabley futile,

    people such as Patrick Ferguson, who was slaughtered by the rebellious Americans ignored the Loyalists' white flags which were flying with his band. 157 Loyalists were killed, and 163 so seriously hurt that they were abandoned on a nearby mountain. Some were rescued by local Loyalists, and nursed back to health. Others were less fortunate: for weeks afterwards, turkey-buzzards, wolves and hogs fattened themselves on human carrion.

    This is the fruit of 'Independence Day'

    Subsequently, not happy with killing Patrick Ferguson, who was 17, jubilant Rebels stripped and urinated on his corpse, and thus he was buried in a shallow grave.


    and one more person, John Andre - who was sent to meet Benedict Arnold deep within Rebeldom, with his full military uniform and colours on, and subsequently the Americans caught him, and hanged him as spy, but as a spy - he would not have been wearing his full colours, and amusingly enough he allowed George Washington to escape many times while he was within sniping distance as a sign of respect, however - the Americans indeed fail to mention any such issues.

    You can freely look on the internet for the mass graves of British soldiers still present in America, not only mass graves, but also unknown graves and shallow ones - so, please keep this in mind - as i have, and, as having traced my own family line back to this period and linking a few names of regimental soldiers to myself, it is rather sad to know that these young people travelled so far away, risking disease and death on a daily basis and are being completely forgotten

    ...and with the Americans typically portraying the British involved in the Revolutionary war as the equivalent of 18th century Nazis, i thought i'd try and make a point today - and i thought it was quite important to - oh well, never mind - what do all of you think? does my opinion hold any credence? having also visited the grave of Patrick Ferguson last year, it is something i empathise with
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    Both sides were British. I view july 4th as a celebration of democracy against tyranny rather than a purely American holiday.
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    (Original post by nan Siarich)
    Both sides were British. I view july 4th as a celebration of democracy against tyranny rather than a purely American holiday.


    tyranny? who was tyrannous? - the American colonies should have been taxed as much as the people living in Great Britain ! maybe both sides were British, but the colonists defined themselves as American


    EDIT: and i wouldn't say the Americans were democratic by any means
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    (Original post by John Paul Jones)
    people such as Patrick Ferguson, who was slaughtered by the rebellious Americans ignored the Loyalists' white flags which were flying with his band. 157 Loyalists were killed, and 163 so seriously hurt that they were abandoned on a nearby mountain.
    and one more person, John Andre - who was sent to meet Benedict Arnold deep within Rebeldom, with his full military uniform and colours on, and subsequently the Americans caught him, and hanged him as spy, but as a spy - he would not have been wearing his full colours, and amusingly enough he allowed George Washington to escape many times while he was within sniping distance as a sign of respect, however - the Americans indeed fail to mention any such issues.

    You sick dude...

    I could give you hundreds of occasions, much nearer our own time when the English slaughtered Irishmen who had surrendered...

    You take men like Theobald Wolfe Tone, a French General, and sentence him to be hung in contravention of his military status...

    You don't even care who you kill or intern so long as you think your ends are being served... At Dunlavin Green you slaughtered your own soldiers for fear they "might" be traitors...

    You stood by and let the French Army decimate one of its own regiments in the First World War...

    You Operate a shoot to kill policy in the six occupied counties in north eastern Ireland...

    You shot an English tourist on the Free State side of Carlingford Lough randomly walking along after an operation had been expidited against your troops (revenge, assuming he was Irish..?)

    You are not lily-white... Nor are the Americans (by any shadow of the imagination)... Nor are the Irish Republican Army... No combatant force ever can be (though I draw a book called "Guerrila Days in Ireland" by Tom Barry for an example of fair fighting (if such a sick euphemism may be used))...

    I have no respect for your soldiers. They chose to fight. They got killed...

    I have sympathy for innocent people who get killed going about their daily lives by armies who have nothing to offer the world but suffering and death...

    Peace!
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    (Original post by polthegael)
    You sick dude...

    I could give you hundreds of occasions, much nearer our own time when the English slaughtered Irishmen who had surrendered...

    You take men like Theobald Wolfe Tone, a French General, and sentence him to be hung in contravention of his military status...

    You don't even care who you kill or intern so long as you think your ends are being served... At Dunlavin Green you slaughtered your own soldiers for fear they "might" be traitors...

    You stood by and let the French Army decimate one of its own regiments in the First World War...

    You Operate a shoot to kill policy in the six occupied counties in north eastern Ireland...

    You shot an English tourist on the Free State side of Carlingford Lough randomly walking along after an operation had been expidited against your troops (revenge, assuming he was Irish..?)

    You are not lily-white... Nor are the Americans (by any shadow of the imagination)... Nor are the Irish Republican Army... No combatant force ever can be (though I draw a book called "Guerrila Days in Ireland" by Tom Barry for an example of fair fighting (if such a sick euphemism may be used))...

    I have no respect for your soldiers. They chose to fight. They got killed...

    I have sympathy for innocent people who get killed going about their daily lives by armies who have nothing to offer the world but suffering and death...

    Peace!


    i'm not sick, you shouldn't offend people in such a manner - Parnell himself, who you're people so admire, was a thuggish villain, who could not command himself in a reasonable manner, that's why he was put in prison after the great man Gladstone reasonably allowed the first Land Act to be passed, but Parnell - being the Irish Nationalist he was, had to change the question whenever we came up with an answer,

    and Wolf Tone? yes ? he was an enemy of the British, he helped the French Army - and he didn't wear his full military uniform while scouring in the United Kingdom

    and what else? oh shall we mention the Irish who helped the Germans in the First World War, or the Irish who wouldn't let the British use their naval ports against the Nazis during the second world war,

    listen - i know a lot about Irish history, especially 19th century, as i had to study it as a part of my British History A-level, and believe me - i certainly don't buy the 'Irish struggle' cliche at all,

    oh - and shall we mention the Fenians? - and those 6 counties, they're not occupied by law.
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    (Original post by John Paul Jones)
    tyranny? who was tyrannous? - the American colonies should have been taxed as much as the people living in Great Britain ! maybe both sides were British, but the colonists defined themselves as American


    EDIT: and i wouldn't say the Americans were democratic by any means
    Im not comparing the levels of tax, i know the colonists were taxed far less than those living in Britain. The fact is they refused to pay tax to the king without democratic representation, something they were entirely within their rights to demand and its a shame more of those living in the british isles didnt show similiar courage in demanding their own rights.
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    you know, JPJ, your opinion does hold some credence for me. The Americans in that war were butchers and rouges and all sorts of things. But today is not a day to look to the past of America and is strained realtionship (at that time at least) with England et al. Today is a time to look towards America becoming a democratic and free society, and a time to measure how far it has come, and how far it must go to become what it wants.

    Today is a time for America to ask itself, have we really changed?, and for them to celebrate their progress. So don't begrudge them a few fireworks and a pic-nic (sp?). Let them consider and reflect how they have come out of the barbarity you describe, and let them plot a course for the future to build a country the whole word can be proud of. And let them inspire us to do the same.

    Marc
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    (Original post by tkfmbp)
    you know, JPJ, your opinion does hold some credence for me. The Americans in that war were butchers and rouges and all sorts of things. But today is not a day to look to the past of America and is strained realtionship (at that time at least) with England et al. Today is a time to look towards America becoming a democratic and free society, and a time to measure how far it has come, and how far it must go to become what it wants.

    Today is a time for America to ask itself, have we really changed?, and for them to celebrate their progress. So don't begrudge them a few fireworks and a pic-nic (sp?). Let them consider and reflect how they have come out of the barbarity you describe, and let them plot a course for the future to build a country the whole word can be proud of. And let them inspire us to do the same.

    Marc
    i guess you're right - i do think it's more about the idea of the free society, equality and democracy - i mean, it is amazing what they have done in only 230 years of existance, however it has been tarnished with blood and misery during that period, and their road to democracy was perhaps a little more violent and lamentable than for example, the British road - nonetheless, i do see what you mean in the greater context of 'America' -

    and don't get me wrong, i think America's a great place and i go there every year - but it just bothers me when i walk through town and see an American flag and people celebrating here, it is rather strange, but to be honest, i don't think the average person on the street really cares much for a war which took place many years ago, it would be even stranger is we celebrated Bastille day - and the French Revolution, where in fact HUNDREDS of thousands of British soldiers died !
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    Lets face it.

    The French have always been manipulative in regency and government and this is a trait still noticeable today. They have broken EU rules but since they make the rules they get away with it!!! GRR :mad: As a country, they are full of wonderful people who make great wine, cheese and renualts. AS a government and world "power" i despise them.
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    (Original post by tkfmbp)
    Lets face it.

    The French have always been manipulative in regency and government and this is a trait still noticeable today. They have broken EU rules but since they make the rules they get away with it!!! GRR :mad: As a country, they are full of wonderful people who make great wine, cheese and renualts. AS a government and world "power" i despise them.
    They are the most inherently arrogant and ego-sensitive nation on earth.
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    Je suis d'accord.
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    (Original post by John Paul Jones)
    and their road to democracy was perhaps a little more violent and lamentable than for example, the British road
    I hear the (English) Civil War wasn't all that pleasant
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    (Original post by tkfmbp)
    Lets face it.

    The French have always been manipulative in regency and government and this is a trait still noticeable today. They have broken EU rules but since they make the rules they get away with it!!! GRR :mad: As a country, they are full of wonderful people who make great wine, cheese and renualts. AS a government and world "power" i despise them.

    lol that is true - it is in their nature to be very slippery and sneaky - they are the epitomy of an amalgamation of the Marquis De Sade, Robespierre and Serge Gainsbourg lol
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    Correct. The English Civil War wasn't pleasant. Neither was the American one. Nor the French Revolution. Or the Russian of 1918. What's your point ? For most of us times have changed.
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    (Original post by tkfmbp)
    Correct. The English Civil War wasn't pleasant. Neither was the American one. Nor the French Revolution. Or the Russian of 1918. What's your point ? For most of us times have changed.
    My point is JPJ saying the British road was better than the American one is not necessarily true (and quite possibly false)
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    (Original post by teamvillage)
    My point is JPJ saying the British road was better than the American one is not necessarily true (and quite possibly false)

    well, i wouldn't really say the English Civil War was about democracy in my opinion, more about the King delegating more power to parliament, who really weren't concerned with the ordinary person on the street and their rights,


    the road to democracy pretty much started with the 1832 Reform act and subsequently Peel's changing of political parties to reflect the national interest rather than their own -all the way through the 2nd and 3rd Reform act and distrubution acts, and to women's voting
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    I still back his claim. The American Road was about people fighting other people who controlled them for many years. Then fighting themselves. Then trying to better themselves (now). in Britain we missed out the first step.
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    (Original post by tkfmbp)
    I still back his claim. The American Road was about people fighting other people who controlled them for many years. Then fighting themselves. Then trying to better themselves (now). in Britain we missed out the first step.

    and also - the American Civil War was many times more violent than the English one, and that really was concerning democracy and equality
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    (Original post by John Paul Jones)
    As we all know, this is Independence Day for America,

    however, I think we should also take time to remember the thousands of British soldiers who travelled many miles away from their families and homes to fight for a cause which was inevitabley futile,

    people such as Patrick Ferguson, who was slaughtered by the rebellious Americans ignored the Loyalists' white flags which were flying with his band. 157 Loyalists were killed, and 163 so seriously hurt that they were abandoned on a nearby mountain. Some were rescued by local Loyalists, and nursed back to health. Others were less fortunate: for weeks afterwards, turkey-buzzards, wolves and hogs fattened themselves on human carrion.

    This is the fruit of 'Independence Day'

    Subsequently, not happy with killing Patrick Ferguson, who was 17, jubilant Rebels stripped and urinated on his corpse, and thus he was buried in a shallow grave.


    and one more person, John Andre - who was sent to meet Benedict Arnold deep within Rebeldom, with his full military uniform and colours on, and subsequently the Americans caught him, and hanged him as spy, but as a spy - he would not have been wearing his full colours, and amusingly enough he allowed George Washington to escape many times while he was within sniping distance as a sign of respect, however - the Americans indeed fail to mention any such issues.

    You can freely look on the internet for the mass graves of British soldiers still present in America, not only mass graves, but also unknown graves and shallow ones - so, please keep this in mind - as i have, and, as having traced my own family line back to this period and linking a few names of regimental soldiers to myself, it is rather sad to know that these young people travelled so far away, risking disease and death on a daily basis and are being completely forgotten

    ...and with the Americans typically portraying the British involved in the Revolutionary war as the equivalent of 18th century Nazis, i thought i'd try and make a point today - and i thought it was quite important to - oh well, never mind - what do all of you think? does my opinion hold any credence? having also visited the grave of Patrick Ferguson last year, it is something i empathise with
    I think that it should be remebered in America and in Britain that so many soldiers on both sides lost their lives. I should kind of be a celebration but with a bit of remeberence too. It is sad to think that maybe the Americans didn't fight fair. But then it is war and people rarely do fight fair.
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    (Original post by nan Siarich)
    Both sides were British. I view july 4th as a celebration of democracy against tyranny rather than a purely American holiday.
    Tyranny? Britain was one of the first nations to have a parliamentarian monarchy. Why do you think that the British monarchy was seen as a first model for the French revolution? You need to read some Montesquieu.

    Plus everyone knows that most of the colonials were just as British as those in the British Isles. They just were all mean and wanted to hold on to their money. Nothing to do with moral values. Look at the atrocities they did afterwards: they abolished slavery decades after the British and other European countries.

    So much for human rights! haha
 
 
 
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