Something that really shocked me. DISCUSS!

Watch this thread
ButterflyRN
Badges: 9
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#1
Report Thread starter 5 years ago
#1
So a couple of weeks ago my manager, the Senior Sister attended a Leadership study day where many of the senior nurse managers attended, including the Chief Nurse, Deputy Chief Nurse as well as a few others. They discussed that the Trust was having severe issues recruiting RN's and that my area of nursing, DME, is particularly struggling to recruit. So they discussed how they could tackle this issue amongst other things. One of the issues that was discussed was the ever increasing workload of the RN because of the nature of the job, patients becoming more complex to look after and because quite frankly there is a shortage of RN's so there is a lot more pressure on them with an increased workload.

My manager along with some of the other Sisters and Senior Sisters in medicine gave an account of the duties the RN has to complete each and every shift. Some of the things mentioned were washing patients, feeding them, meds rounds, IV's, dressings, complex discharge planning, admissions, referrals, care planning, paperwork etc. There were many more mentioned but these were just a few. The Chief Nurse turned around and said something along the lines of, "Why are Registered Nurses washing, toileting and feeding patients when they have so many other priorities. Isn't that what HCA's are for?"

I don't think this went down very well and I was absolutely seething when my manager told me. She stopped there, because I was getting incredibly riled up, but what she did tell me was that they expect higher standards from us running on skeleton staff and focused on menial, trivial things and ignored the burning issues on the wards.

Like I've just mentioned, I was so angry when I found out and if I had been there I would have made myself very unpopular by arguing back. How on Earth can management be so out of touch with what is really going on, on the wards? How on Earth can I continue to teach my students the importance of basic nursing care when our own Chief Nurse has a "too posh to wash" attitude? Am I missing something here? Is it me that is out of touch?

It is the RN's responsibility to ensure that a patient receives good, basic nursing care. It is the RN's responsibility to ensure that pressure areas are checked, monitored and documented. Yes, we cannot wash, feed, toilet and turn every single patient all of the time. But we need to work together as a team to ensure that we provide good basic care. Yes, whilst I am carrying out my nursing duties my HCA's can come and find me to check a patient's PA's. But in that time they have come to fetch me, finishing up what I am currently doing I could have probably repositioned the patient or toileted the patient quicker myself, checking their pressure areas as well as carrying out other basic assessments. It just wastes everyone's time in my opinion.

Basic nursing care is everyone's responsibility and we should ALL do it! I spend so much time teaching my students how important basic nurse care is! I tell them how many assessments you can make in the 15 or so minutes you spend washing a patient in the morning. You can assess to see if they look unwell, how they communicate, their mood, their pressure areas, continence, mobility, even nutrition because many patients ask for a drink, cannula's, and you can sometimes do a quick wound dressing if it is a simple dressing. You can plan and evaluate a patients care and management on that short period you spend washing them. If you are not hands on with your patients and you have no contact with them, how can you assess them accurately and plan the best care for them?

Am I just wasting my time teaching students good, basic care? Why should they take it seriously when our own senior managers think RN's are above washing a patient? Obviously I do not expect my students to spend all their time washing, toileting and feeding patients. I want my students to get the best learning experience possible. But I want them to know how important it is and how much you can assess and evaluate just by completing those tasks.

I am a Sister and washing patients, wiping bums, feeding patients and talking to them is not beneath me. I will do a set of obs if my HCA is busy. I will dip some pee if it's me that's obtaining the sample and send it off. I will even do some cleaning if I am stuck supervising the bay whilst I wait for my HCA to relieve me. It doesn't bother me. I would never delegate a task that I am not prepared to do myself. That's just a general unspoken rule of nursing.

Please tell me that this is not the common attitude of nursing managers everywhere and that this is just isolated? And that not all Trust's are just purely target focused instead of actually putting the patients first? Am I just being cynical and expecting too much? Is it me that needs to change my attitude?

I was absolutely disgusted, and if anything it has made me more determined to climb the ladder into higher management so I can change attitudes and bring some of them down from their pedestals and bring them back down to planet Earth.
7
reply
deviant182
Badges: 15
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#2
Report 5 years ago
#2
The attitude of that individual does not help matters regarding the abuse the nursing profession has to take.
I am a nursing student and I have always thought (I was a hca prior to commencing my course) that basic care is fundamental to helping care for someone.
Regardless of what your role and your salary is, helping someone with bathing and toileting is a very important skill and task. It is not beneath anyone. How would that individual feel if their relatives were treated with attitude I'd love to know.
As you mentioned, when carrying out personal hygiene tasks such as assisting with bathing etc, it allows for a skin assessment to be carried out. It allows for dressings to be changed etc.
But more importantly, it allows you to spend some time with the patient. You get to know them. They open up. They talk. And I believe this interaction, especially when you're on a ward for god only knows how long, can change someone's day. It shows to them there are staff there who have the time for them. Who do care. And people hold a lot back, they don't want to worry the staff, or the nurses are really busy, or there's bound to be people worse than me who need their help etc.
This means you could possibly find out they've had a small but niggling pain for a few hours, or, they've not been drinking too much or eating too much as they haven't felt up to it. Or they're stressed because of a b or c at home. And we all know the effects stress has on a person physiologically too.

I would say this is is hopefully just specific to your area as I've worked in 2 countries within the UK in various areas and I have never met a sister, a nurse, a hca, or a manager of any description, say that personal care is the job of the HCA. Everyone works as a team, and ultimately you're there for your patients. Not the other way around.

Posted from TSR Mobile
3
reply
wbnurse
Badges: 9
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#3
Report 5 years ago
#3
I'm actually disgusted by this. Since when has this attitude been adopted?! This person is being paid a ridiculous amount of money and they have no idea about the role that made them. Complete disregard to HCAs like they are just slaves almost. I detest that attitude that some nurses carry. My old
Job I was a hca and 90% of the nurses literally did nothing personal. They'd even have the cheek to write notes and fill in skin bundles on patients they hadn't seen. But people just get used to it and nothing gets said. I always vowed to never become an idle nurse. Yes you have to prioritise your work load but it has to be a pretty good priority over the personal care of your patient. This sworm of idle nurses needs to end! And the idle ones that work in the pearly offices!


Posted from TSR Mobile
0
reply
seaholme
Badges: 19
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#4
Report 5 years ago
#4
Seems to me that sadly this is the direction of a financially strapped and staff strapped NHS. If a task can be done by an HCA, then it's easier/cheaper to find and employ HCAs versus employing more nurses. It's the same with all job roles in the NHS at the moment, with everybodys jobs becoming less and less broad ranging - if they can find somebody else to fill that role on paper for cheaper then they'd rather squeeze your specific level of expertise/responsibility out a bit more. IMO it's not about the quality of what is being done, just about pure logistics. If you spend your whole day doing drugs rounds and just the things which are totally separate from the role of an HCA then they can get away with their current level of staffing.

It works to an extent but then it also de-skills people by taking elements of their job and training/experience away. And like you said, means that the job is less satisfying for the worker who isn't able to provide the care they'd like.
0
reply
mel_l218
Badges: 11
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#5
Report 5 years ago
#5
I'm currently a HCA in a care home (I have a place on an access course this September and hope to go to university to study adult nursing next year) the "too posh to wash" attitude is something I am familiar with, some of our nurses are wonderful, willing to assist residents with meals and take residents to the toilet, when they can, however other nurses and the lead nurse think the duties of a HCA are below them. I've been assisting a resident with a meal and been interrupted and told to take a resident to the toilet, even though the nurse is in a position to do it. I have been receiving hand over at the start of the shift and been told a residents catheter is "at bursting point" and to empty it as soon as hand over is completed, which begs the question, why didn't she empty it then?
I agree that basic care is fundamental part of being a nurse, and find it insulting that some nurses act as if they are better than washing, dressing and wiping bottoms. When I get my nursing degree (touch wood) I'll be getting stuck in and putting my patients first.
I hope you change more attitudes ButterflyRN, it needs to happen.
1
reply
Speed1987
Badges: 8
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#6
Report 5 years ago
#6
I didn't read the whole of your post. However this chief nurse in my eyes presents a effective and economical argument.

Nursing needs to adapt and the longer nurses hold onto this idea of always doing the basics then the profession will continue to struggle. Yes some like to be involved in direct care who doesn't? However step back and ask is that economical because if that's how you want to spend your time don't waste NHS funding.

The point is, is washing a patient is not a hugely complex task, children often learn this task by age 3 to 4. Yes we can put all the wishy washy stuff in, nurses need to respect dignity & privacy etc but honestly is not rocket science... You don't need a degree to wash a patient, however to interpret mews scores or changes in patients heart rates, then academia is essential.

Further to this, you get the whole hierarchy problem... We don't need to spend most of our time washing patients, to show HCAs they are on the same level as nurses. They aren't, it's simple. Just as junior doctors are not on the same level as consultants. HCAs are essentially entry level... Into this career. Yea you can muck in every now and then but really, the skills of nurses need to be better harvested.
0
reply
ForestCat
Badges: 18
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#7
Report 5 years ago
#7
(Original post by mel_l218)
I'm currently a HCA in a care home (I have a place on an access course this September and hope to go to university to study adult nursing next year) the "too posh to wash" attitude is something I am familiar with, some of our nurses are wonderful, willing to assist residents with meals and take residents to the toilet, when they can, however other nurses and the lead nurse think the duties of a HCA are below them. I've been assisting a resident with a meal and been interrupted and told to take a resident to the toilet, even though the nurse is in a position to do it. I have been receiving hand over at the start of the shift and been told a residents catheter is "at bursting point" and to empty it as soon as hand over is completed, which begs the question, why didn't she empty it then?
I agree that basic care is fundamental part of being a nurse, and find it insulting that nurses act as if they are better than washing, dressing and wiping bottoms. When I get my nursing degree (touch wood) I'll be getting stuck in and putting my patients first.
I hope you change more attitudes ButterflyRN, it needs to happen.
I'm a nurse (although I'm now doing other things) and it always shocks me how much some nurses do this. As long as I'm not in the middle of something (my own patient care/procedure etc) I'll always answer bells/toilet/feed etc. It's part of my duty of care to the patient. Even if it's not my patient, I'm still partly responsible for all the patients on the ward during my shift.
The amount of nurses who won't answer bells is too high (thankfully not in my old full time jobs, but some places I've worked as agency). You don't know why the patient is ringing, someone may have fallen, been incontinent, ripped out their cannula etc. I once witnessed a nurse argue that they couldn't answer bells on a night shift because they have assessments to do. I felt like saying they have ten bloody hours to do the paper work, get off your ass!

This always meant I struggled to delegate as I always thought why should I ask the hcas to do something I can do myself. But I've learnt I can't do everything for everyone. It's a fine balance, something that's especially difficult when you first start nursing. But also there is still an attitude amongst some nurses that it's not their job to do this.

I don't know what the solution is. The problem is the nhs constantly implements new protocols and guidelines about patient care, and redefines staff roles, so it's hard to settle in to a balance that is effective.

Posted from TSR Mobile
2
reply
Swagio
Badges: 12
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#8
Report 5 years ago
#8
(Original post by mel_l218)
I'm currently a HCA in a care home (I have a place on an access course this September and hope to go to university to study adult nursing next year) the "too posh to wash" attitude is something I am familiar with, some of our nurses are wonderful, willing to assist residents with meals and take residents to the toilet, when they can, however other nurses and the lead nurse think the duties of a HCA are below them. I've been assisting a resident with a meal and been interrupted and told to take a resident to the toilet, even though the nurse is in a position to do it. I have been receiving hand over at the start of the shift and been told a residents catheter is "at bursting point" and to empty it as soon as hand over is completed, which begs the question, why didn't she empty it then?
I agree that basic care is fundamental part of being a nurse, and find it insulting that some nurses act as if they are better than washing, dressing and wiping bottoms. When I get my nursing degree (touch wood) I'll be getting stuck in and putting my patients first.
I hope you change more attitudes ButterflyRN, it needs to happen.
Hated this so much when I was in care homes! Worked in 3 which had nurses and only one had nurses who got involved and supported us.
I honestly sometimes wondered what they did as we did all personal care and medications etc and community nurses came in to dressings, treatments, observations etc.
Some used to point blank refuse to help me with people who needed 2 people to help them go to the loo. And in all honesty I wouldn't have given a toss what they were doing if we weren't so overstretched and in need with a bit of help.
Think what hca's do is so undervalued!


Posted from TSR Mobile
0
reply
WeirdLittleO
Badges: 11
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#9
Report 5 years ago
#9
(Original post by Speed1987)
I didn't read the whole of your post. However this chief nurse in my eyes presents a effective and economical argument.

Nursing needs to adapt and the longer nurses hold onto this idea of always doing the basics then the profession will continue to struggle. Yes some like to be involved in direct care who doesn't? However step back and ask is that economical because if that's how you want to spend your time don't waste NHS funding.

The point is, is washing a patient is not a hugely complex task, children often learn this task by age 3 to 4. Yes we can put all the wishy washy stuff in, nurses need to respect dignity & privacy etc but honestly is not rocket science... You don't need a degree to wash a patient, however to interpret mews scores or changes in patients heart rates, then academia is essential.

Further to this, you get the whole hierarchy problem... We don't need to spend most of our time washing patients, to show HCAs they are on the same level as nurses. They aren't, it's simple. Just as junior doctors are not on the same level as consultants. HCAs are essentially entry level... Into this career. Yea you can muck in every now and then but really, the skills of nurses need to be better harvested.
As an almost qualified nurse, I have to disagree. Of course the basics is fundamental to nursing. How can you document something like pressure area care if you have not actually seen it yourself? Sure, the hcas may have seen it and told you that their skin is fine, but maybe they've told you the skin is red and blanching when in fact, it's a stage one. Then it develops into a stage two and so on. But you don't know that because you haven't seen it and taken action.
I was on an agency shift as a hca once and towards the end of my shift I went in to help reposition a patient I hadn't seen all day and I discovered two stage twos on their buttocks. I looked at the chart and it had been documented as red and blanching all day. Had the nurse seen it at stage one, maybe it wouldn't have developed to stage two.
This is why you have to do your own assessments if you're documenting something because that's your name on the document. If you're too posh to wash, you're going to miss something like that. Not only that, but you're missing out on an opportunity to get to know your patient and assess their needs.

As for your 'nurses shouldn't be spending most of their time washing patients' this is not what anyone in this thread has suggested. It is simply suggested that if the nurse has time, and has prioritised jobs the hcas can't do, then they should help out with personal care.
It is not fair to make a hca wash 8 or more patients because the nurse working with them assumes that's the job of the hca and it is beneath them.




Posted from TSR Mobile
0
reply
mel_l218
Badges: 11
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#10
Report 5 years ago
#10
(Original post by WeirdLittleO)
As an almost qualified nurse, I have to disagree. Of course the basics is fundamental to nursing. How can you document something like pressure area care if you have not actually seen it yourself? Sure, the hcas may have seen it and told you that their skin is fine, but maybe they've told you the skin is red and blanching when in fact, it's a stage one. Then it develops into a stage two and so on. But you don't know that because you haven't seen it and taken action.
I was on an agency shift as a hca once and towards the end of my shift I went in to help reposition a patient I hadn't seen all day and I discovered two stage twos on their buttocks. I looked at the chart and it had been documented as red and blanching all day. Had the nurse seen it at stage one, maybe it wouldn't have developed to stage two.
This is why you have to do your own assessments if you're documenting something because that's your name on the document. If you're too posh to wash, you're going to miss something like that. Not only that, but you're missing out on an opportunity to get to know your patient and assess their needs.

As for your 'nurses shouldn't be spending most of their time washing patients' this is not what anyone in this thread has suggested. It is simply suggested that if the nurse has time, and has prioritised jobs the hcas can't do, then they should help out with personal care.
It is not fair to make a hca wash 8 or more patients because the nurse working with them assumes that's the job of the hca and it is beneath them.




Posted from TSR Mobile
Great post weirdlittleO,I agree, and good luck with the rest of your course.
0
reply
PaediatricStN
Badges: 12
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#11
Report 5 years ago
#11
(Original post by Speed1987)
I didn't read the whole of your post. However this chief nurse in my eyes presents a effective and economical argument.

Nursing needs to adapt and the longer nurses hold onto this idea of always doing the basics then the profession will continue to struggle. Yes some like to be involved in direct care who doesn't? However step back and ask is that economical because if that's how you want to spend your time don't waste NHS funding.

The point is, is washing a patient is not a hugely complex task, children often learn this task by age 3 to 4. Yes we can put all the wishy washy stuff in, nurses need to respect dignity & privacy etc but honestly is not rocket science... You don't need a degree to wash a patient, however to interpret mews scores or changes in patients heart rates, then academia is essential.

Further to this, you get the whole hierarchy problem... We don't need to spend most of our time washing patients, to show HCAs they are on the same level as nurses. They aren't, it's simple. Just as junior doctors are not on the same level as consultants. HCAs are essentially entry level... Into this career. Yea you can muck in every now and then but really, the skills of nurses need to be better harvested.
If you didn't read the whole post, how can you effectively comment?

Quite what you do for a living, I don't know. But if it is a clinical role I would be incredibly surprised, as you show very little knowledge for what really happens on the wards. I'll address your points one by one...

Children do not learn to wash themselves by age 3 or 4 - not properly anyway. And they will still need supervision even if they are starting to learn this. Irrespective of that, you simply CANNOT COMPARE washing a patient with a Hickman Line, PEG, stoma bag, ET tube, scoliosis, cerebral palsy, osteoporosis and all the other sorts of interventions and conditions our patients have, to washing a normal, healthy child or adult. The two are worlds apart.

While I have some strong opinions about HCAs, some are very knowledgeable and very skilled. Yes there is still a distinct gap between them and an RN, but they are very useful to have around.

The skills of nurses don't need to be better harvested, it is about skill distribution of HCAs and nurses. In paeds, we don't have many HCAs which means I carry out most of all the care my patients require. This will include nappy/pad changes and feeding them if the parents are not around. If I'm working with a HCA, and lots of stuff is due that we can both do, I often give them the choice of what they would like to do. If medicines and observations are due, they have to do the obs as only I can do the medicines. That's not being too posh to wash or thinking that I am above certain tasks, it's distributing the skills appropriately and good time management.
0
reply
PaediatricStN
Badges: 12
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#12
Report 5 years ago
#12
Totally agree with ButterflyRN. I'm responsible for every aspect of care my patients receive, whether I do it, or a HCA does it. I'll never ask someone to do something I wouldn't do myself, but sometimes there are time constraints, or constraints of ward staffing which mean the HCA has to do it. If I'm free, I offer to help my colleagues. Whether that's something important like checking drugs or doing an IV, or whether its something more "Menial" like sourcing some medicine for them at 1am from another ward or bleeping the porters, I'll do it. If no one needs help, then I'll tidy and clean the ward, and restock the drug room, gloves and aprons etc... That's part of being in a team.
0
reply
theBranicAc
Badges: 3
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#13
Report 5 years ago
#13
who acctually had the time to read all of that lol
0
reply
ButterflyRN
Badges: 9
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#14
Report Thread starter 5 years ago
#14
(Original post by Speed1987)
I didn't read the whole of your post. However this chief nurse in my eyes presents a effective and economical argument.

Nursing needs to adapt and the longer nurses hold onto this idea of always doing the basics then the profession will continue to struggle. Yes some like to be involved in direct care who doesn't? However step back and ask is that economical because if that's how you want to spend your time don't waste NHS funding.

The point is, is washing a patient is not a hugely complex task, children often learn this task by age 3 to 4. Yes we can put all the wishy washy stuff in, nurses need to respect dignity & privacy etc but honestly is not rocket science... You don't need a degree to wash a patient, however to interpret mews scores or changes in patients heart rates, then academia is essential.

Further to this, you get the whole hierarchy problem... We don't need to spend most of our time washing patients, to show HCAs they are on the same level as nurses. They aren't, it's simple. Just as junior doctors are not on the same level as consultants. HCAs are essentially entry level... Into this career. Yea you can muck in every now and then but really, the skills of nurses need to be better harvested.
If you didn't read the whole post then how can you really comment on the points that I have made? No, washing a patient isn't a complex task and it doesn't require a degree to do it. But as a RN it's one of the most important times of the day to assess my patients. As I stated in the OP, you can pretty much assess everything about your patient by washing them in the morning. If you are hands on and spend time with your patients then you will know pretty much everything about them without having to think too much, so when you are writing your care plan evaluations for the day you can give a truthful account of how the patient is that day. I don't see how you can write an evaluation and sign your name to a legal document if you haven't clapped eyes on that patient all day. I have been the only RN for 11 elderly, complex and sick patients for the past 3 days. And yes, whilst my HCA's have done a lot of the feeding and repositioning, I have got stuck in too because that is the nature of the ward, you HAVE to get stuck in to get the job done. I am not gonna sit on my backside letting my HCA's run around like blue arsed flies just because "washing, toileting and feeding patients doesn't require a degree to do". Of course if I have a sick patient, have specific treatments and medications to administer and other nursing priorities then of course I am going to prioritise that first over answering a buzzer, taking a patient to the toilet etc. But that doesn't mean I have to stop doing that altogether.

Whether you like it or not, washing, feeding, toileting, repositioning, communication etc. are the fundamentals of nursing care. Relatives of patients are anxious about making sure their loved ones have been fed and watered, washed properly, toileted and have received their medications and treatments. That is what is important to them, our patients and it should be important to us. How can I teach aspiring nurses the importance of these things and how it helps us plan the correct care for our patients if I have minimal patient contact? It wouldn't be an honest assessment that's for sure.

Of course the nursing profession is expanding and changing and of course we have to adapt, but why do basic values have to be lost in the process? I went into the nursing profession to CARE and actually look after my patients, not p*ss about filling in paperwork and referrals all day and making management happy by meeting their targets.
0
reply
username944192
Badges: 21
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#15
Report 5 years ago
#15
I think you are overreacting personally. I don't think the point of this person was that you are above washing etc or that the nursing profession in general is above these tasks. I think they were saying when you are very low on the ground with staff, and you have HCAs there, they should be taking on these kinds of duties so that you are free to focus on the duties that differentiate you from an HCA - you are a band 5 (or higher), they are a band 3, there are tasks you are paid to do that they cannot do and you need to be doing those. If you are low staffed, while I appreciate you are trying to give good care always and that's great, it's probably not the best use of your time and the time of the ward for you to be doing duties that an HCA could be doing when you could be elsewhere doing a task that an HCA is not qualified to do. Obviously, the tasks you've mentioned such as washing, toileting etc are always going to be part of basic nursing care and no nurse should turn their nose up at doing these. But, things change when you are low on the ground and it makes sense to allow HCAs to get on with HCA level tasks and you to focus on the tasks that make you a nurse rather than an HCA. Your attitude to HCAs and general nursing is commendable, and I see where you're coming from, but I think being low staffed makes a difference. If the HCAs can't do the filling in paperwork and referrals etc and that is part of your job then you need to be doing that and let the HCAs get on with HCA work. I agree with the above poster that this way of working particularly when low staffed is more economical and effective, they aren't paying you a band 3 salary to wash and toilet when there's paperwork or other stuff commensurate with a band 5/6 to be doing and the HCAs can't do those tasks
0
reply
username944192
Badges: 21
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#16
Report 5 years ago
#16
(Original post by seaholme)

It works to an extent but then it also de-skills people by taking elements of their job and training/experience away. And like you said, means that the job is less satisfying for the worker who isn't able to provide the care they'd like.
Do you think? I have to say, as much as I empathise with the OP of this thread (I work in the NHS also) I read part of it as she didn't want to be doing the tasks that make her a band 5 nurse over a band 2 or 3 HCA. The paperwork and referrals I'm guessing HCAs can't do, the basic washing, toileting, feeding etc a HCA can do. I'm sure in an ideal world or even an ideal NHS nurses would have the capacity to do both of these level tasks but I don't see much good in moaning about having to do tasks commensurate with your band. If you wanted to only do band 3 HCA jobs you could've just stayed a band 3 HCA, not become a band 5 nurse. Far from deskilling it sounded a bit to me like OP wants to be doing tasks that are generally commensurate only with a band 2/3 and is less keen on doing the band 5 tasks - yet she is being paid at a nurse level...

[Sorry for so many references to bands, a lot of people think they are just about pay but they are more about responsibilities also. I used to work in nursing/HCA recruitment in the NHS.]
0
reply
wbnurse
Badges: 9
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#17
Report 5 years ago
#17
I think there's great examples here of people who don't value the HCAs as much as they should. Have you ever been a hca when a ward is short? When all personal care is dumped on you? I do not think that a nurse doing no personal care has ANY reasonable excuse (of course apart from an emergency) if you go a full 13.5 hours for several weeks without doing any personal care what so ever you are idle. It's that simple. I'm not going to write an essay on nursing duties and bands and all that malarkey I'm talking in real terms here. This is a massive problem not just the odd day where they are short staffed. It's a huge problem. Some nurses forget what they are and what they should be doing. And having a chief nurse say the same is shocking!


Posted from TSR Mobile
0
reply
wbnurse
Badges: 9
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#18
Report 5 years ago
#18
And that's come from a band 3 hca who had ALOT of responsibility and id see nurses sat chatting for hours doing a handover whilst we all run ragged. And no I'm definitely haven't made that up. I worked in surgery I was a mentor for cadets, I did wound dressing, cannulas you name it but no I still have to do ALL personal care because they nurses simple couldn't be bothered. So maybe my view maybe bias. I just hope when I qualify that il try a little harder to see to my patients personal needs


Posted from TSR Mobile
0
reply
ButterflyRN
Badges: 9
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#19
Report Thread starter 5 years ago
#19
(Original post by infairverona)
Do you think? I have to say, as much as I empathise with the OP of this thread (I work in the NHS also) I read part of it as she didn't want to be doing the tasks that make her a band 5 nurse over a band 2 or 3 HCA. The paperwork and referrals I'm guessing HCAs can't do, the basic washing, toileting, feeding etc a HCA can do. I'm sure in an ideal world or even an ideal NHS nurses would have the capacity to do both of these level tasks but I don't see much good in moaning about having to do tasks commensurate with your band. If you wanted to only do band 3 HCA jobs you could've just stayed a band 3 HCA, not become a band 5 nurse. Far from deskilling it sounded a bit to me like OP wants to be doing tasks that are generally commensurate only with a band 2/3 and is less keen on doing the band 5 tasks - yet she is being paid at a nurse level...

[Sorry for so many references to bands, a lot of people think they are just about pay but they are more about responsibilities also. I used to work in nursing/HCA recruitment in the NHS.]
Of course I want to be doing tasks of the Registered Nurse otherwise I wouldn't have trained to become a nurse!!! My point wasn't that I don't want to be doing nursing tasks because I do and I am actually a very skilled nurse with many extra responsibilities, it was that why should basic nursing values be lost just because we are RN's? Why does it matter that RN's actually still do a lot of fundamental nursing care? Why should this be left solely to the HCA's? How can you honestly evaluate and assess your patient properly if you do not so much as look at them all shift? I think maybe you should re-read my OP, and read my reply above yours.
0
reply
username944192
Badges: 21
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#20
Report 5 years ago
#20
(Original post by ButterflyRN)
Of course I want to be doing tasks of the Registered Nurse otherwise I wouldn't have trained to become a nurse!!! My point wasn't that I don't want to be doing nursing tasks because I do and I am actually a very skilled nurse with many extra responsibilities, it was that why should basic nursing values be lost just because we are RN's? Why does it matter that RN's actually still do a lot of fundamental nursing care? Why should this be left solely to the HCA's? How can you honestly evaluate and assess your patient properly if you do not so much as look at them all shift? I think maybe you should re-read my OP, and read my reply above yours.
Oh trust me, I've read all of it very carefully. I think you should take on board how your posts can come across. If you read my first post, I said your attitude towards it all is great, and I certainly don't doubt you're very skilled as a nurse. It just seems a bit odd to be saying you don't want to do paperwork and referrals all day, that is part of your job and if there are HCAs to do the basic caring then you as a qualified skilled nurse need to do the tasks commensurate with your banding. And I also said - which I reiterate in light of this post - I think you are blowing it up considerably. The CN was not saying 'basic nursing values should be lost', they are paying you to do a band 5 job when there are band 2s or 3s that can do the basic care on your ward. If they wanted someone just to do basic care all day they would not have requested the number of qualified nurses on your ward when they do service assessments and vacancy control. I think it's really great that you clearly enjoy basic care because myself and family have had nurses who clearly think this is above them but from your management's point of view they need to manage the workload on your ward in an economical way. That means, when understaffed, that HCAs do HCA work even if you as a nurse also are happy to do those tasks, and you are free to do the tasks in your banding that HCAs can't.

I have worked in 3 NHS Trusts and I've dealt with HR cases where nurses are complaining about stuff like this. If the tasks are in your banding and there are enough HCAs on your ward, it's a no-brainer for your management
1
reply
X

Quick Reply

Attached files
Write a reply...
Reply
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

How did your AQA GCSE English Language Paper 1 go?

Loved the paper - Feeling positive (70)
19.13%
The paper was reasonable (136)
37.16%
Not feeling great about that exam... (108)
29.51%
It was TERRIBLE (52)
14.21%

Watched Threads

View All
Latest
My Feed