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'Islamphobia' is a nonsense term. watch

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    (Original post by Onde)
    The qur'an has a much narrower definition of "innocent".

    I am an atheist. Do you agree that I should be brutally murdered as the qur'an demands?
    the quran does not demand that you should be brutally murdered.
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    tbh im sick and tired of this. endless debates about **** that isn't gonna get anywhere. im Muslim and sick of tired offensive and rude comments. it's like making a thread against gay people saying homophobia should be banned. wtf. just leave my religion alone. you probably know someone that is muslim? they aren't mass murderers right? there you go.
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    (Original post by Sfhkh)
    I understand what you mean. May I just say, I've have heard people in my class say they fear Muslims who wear hijabs which is utterly ridiculous.
    I guess I would scare them
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    (Original post by star80)
    tbh im sick and tired of this. endless debates about **** that isn't gonna get anywhere. im Muslim and sick of tired offensive and rude comments.
    If you don't like it, don't participate. Nobody's forcing you to do so; you should likewise have the decency to not force others to stop having what you consider to be 'endless debates about **** that isn't gonna get anywhere.'

    Whether you are offended or not is supremely unimportant and irrelevant to whether something ought to be debated.

    it's like making a thread against gay people saying homophobia should be banned.
    Not quite, considering religion is not a fact of biology in the same way as homosexuality.

    Even so, it's a poor analogy - there already are threads about homosexuality and prejudice against homosexuals (you clearly weren't around in late June of last year, when all sorts of threads about homosexuality were popping up in response to the SCOTUS ruling to end discrimination in granting marriage licences in the United States), and that's perfectly fine.

    wtf. just leave my religion alone.
    You don't own your religion anymore than a Communist owns his ideology.

    you probably know someone that is muslim? they aren't mass murderers right? there you go.
    Anecdotal evidence. Nobody has disputed that the vast majority of Muslims are not murderers, but it's ludicrous to use examples of individual self-identified Muslims to try to make statements about Islam. There are Muslims who drink alcohol; does that mean Islam does not prohibit the drinking of alcohol? Of course not. Similar principle applies in other respects.
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    (Original post by Onde)
    "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

    "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a fierce slaughter."

    "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
    This is all irrelevant. Those Quran quotes are about Tribal wars between Muhammed and other tribes present at the time "Quraysh for example".

    As to the questioner, asking about whether or not Islam mandates murder of Atheists, it depends. If you're an Ex-Muslim converting to Atheism, then yes. Imams and Muslim "Scholars" will tell you otherwise and will try to manipulate language to fit their interpretation, but in the end it's just their interpretation, any sane mind's interpretation of the quotes of Muhammed, however, would see that he clearly mandates the murder of converts.

    As for Atheists who weren't previously Muslim, the Quran says nothing in specific, but it only orders Muslims to have "respect" for Christians and Jews given that they pay their tax if living in a Muslim country. The Quran does condemn pagans and you can find several stories in the Quran where Muhammed and Abraham and other prophets just literally went to the places of worship of Pagans and destroyed their statues, so I wouldn't think Islam would warrant much respect for Atheists.
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    Oil on the road


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    Is lamb a phobia?
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    Quoting from the Quran and claiming that it's evidence that Islam is somehow an evil or violent religion is not a sound argument. The Bible's got a fair amount of stuff in it that we wouldn't consider acceptable today, but that doesn't mean that modern Christians are all pro-slavery, does it?

    Islamophobia is a big problem across the UK at the moment. People who are Muslim are being held responsible for the actions of extremists with completely different views to them.

    To come back to the original point of the thread
    Islamophobia is not a nonsense term, it's a sensible term for a nonsense concept. Muslims are being discriminated against for no good reason, and the word for that is islamophobia.
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    (Original post by Onde)
    "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

    "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a fierce slaughter."

    "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
    I often hear this argument, that these passages ( amongst others ) ascribe a pro-active violence to Islamic culture. Actually, they're almost all written to specific contexts. They're not commandments or doctrine, but statements of intent in the immediate. In the second and third quotes, for example, he's speaking towards specific conflicts that he is fighting or anticipating, and not making reference to wider societies outside of those conflicts. In the first quote, he's quite clearly saying that should his enemies interfere in his dominion, either by sowing dissent or challenging Islam, he will make war against them ( which, by the way, is a perfectly reasonable thing for a national leader to say ).

    And then there's the interpretation of "disbeliever" within Islam. More extreme forms of Islamic faith tender a definition that paints anyone who does not agree with them as being a disbeliever, even other Muslims. These are the groups we are talking about when we discuss Daesh or the Taliban, or any other jihadi group. They are not representative of the majority of the 1.2 billion ( plus ) Muslims in the world, in the same way the Ku Klux Klan or the IRA ( which is a loose example at best, I admit ) are not representative of every Catholic/Christian in the world.

    So when we discuss what the Qu'ran says about these things, it must be as nuanced a discussion as any theological discussion related to the Bible. Speaking as only a heathen can, there is no singularly correct way to interpret these books. Your interpretation, of a hyper-violent religion built on perpetual warfare, is just one more to throw onto the pile. It's not a very good one either. I mean... if you want to look to the hyper-violent tone the second part of the Qu'ran takes on, you just have to consider who the main influence ( if not the main author ) was: a warrior king who lived at a time when Islam was under intense and arguably existential pressure from looming external threats.

    So yeah, in conclusion: it's way more nuanced than you'd like it to be.
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    Jesus Christ is the Son of God


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    same as homophobia,. just name calling
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    (Original post by Pro4TLZZ)
    same as homophobia,. just name calling
    Not even comparable.

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    But it is Jesus Christ who is the Son of God


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    I always find it weird how, in spite of Ed Said's protestations, the tradition of Islamophilia and wider xenophilia among westerners actually go back to the early orientalists. Even Voltaire idealized the Ottoman Millet system at one point in his life.

    I think this whole idea of the East as a source of esoteric wisdom the West has not been privy to is something that your average Asiatic, deep down, actually likes. They like the suggestion they are somehow more cultured or ancient. Always reminds me of what Chamberlain said about the Japanophiles of his day:

    "Europe and America evince a singular taste for the marvellous, and find a zest in self-depreciation. Our eighteenth-century ancestors imagined all perfections to be realised in China, thanks to the glowing descriptions then given of that country by the Jesuits. Twentieth-century Europe finds its moral and political Eldorado in distant Japan, a land of fabulous antiquity and incredible virtues. There is no lack of pleasant-mannered persons ready to guide trustful admirers in the right path. Official and semi-official Japanese, whether ambassadors and ministers-resident or peripatetic counts and barons, make it their business to spread a legend so pleasing to the national vanity, so useful as a diplomatic engine. Lectures are delivered, books are written in English, important periodicals are bought up, minute care is lavished on the concealment, the patching-up, and glossing-over of the deep gulf that nevertheless is fixed between East and West. The foreigner cannot refuse the bolus thus artfully forced down his throat. He is not suspicious by nature. How should he imagine that people who make such positive statements about their own country are merely exploiting his credulity? HE has reached a stage of culture where such mythopoeia has become impossible. On the other hand, to control information by consulting original sources lies beyond his capacity."

    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2510/2510-h/2510-h.htm
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    Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslim


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