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    (Original post by wiwarin_mir)
    But you are assuming paedophiles don't try to control their urges, that they act upon them whenever they appear. Fair enough, there are some who do, but there are also others that manage to supress them through whatever means. If these people were to come forward and say I am a paedophile but I don't act on my urges, would they be commended, probably not, they would be met by hostility.
    You refer to 'urges' as if they are unique to paedophiles, the key component is choice. The link between paedophilia and power/control can of course ultimately be put down to some sort of 'mental illness' i.e. our genes, but more or less everything can in the end.

    What about people who feel urges to kill/steal etc.? If we get to the stage where we blame everything on our own 'urges' and genetic makeup then there would arguably be no punishment, just treatment.

    You only have to look at the newer personality disorders that have been classified - does that justify putting all murderers in psychiatric hospitals as opposed to prisons because they have a different personality profile making them more likely to commit murder?
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    (Original post by wiwarin_mir)
    Since it may be said that paedophilia is caused by some kind of mental illness, should we be treating them as harshly as we are?
    You do in general not punish people for being paedophilic. You punish them if they take advantage of minors. It is not a crime to be atracted by children, it is however criminal to take sexual advantage of other people. In the case of minors the law is designed to protect them. I dont think you should treat people in a discriminative manner if they happen to be paedophilic, as there is little they can do about it. However, this does not mean you cannot punish them if they take advantage of other people.
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    Haven't read the replies but i would just like to point out that my mums prison sentences have always been massively decreased due to her mental illnesses, though she never did anything as serious as pedophelia, rape or murder.
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    (Original post by timeofyourlife)
    You only have to look at the newer personality disorders that have been classified - does that justify putting all murderers in psychiatric hospitals as opposed to prisons because they have a different personality profile making them more likely to commit murder?
    To some extent, yes. Im not saying we should treat drug dealers equivalently to, say, schizofrenic people, but if we wish to reduce crime the detterant factor of the punishment must be combined with a component of rehabilitation. If someone is sentenced to 5 years in prision the objective is obviously to detter that person from repeating the crime. Thus a wise thing to do may be to combine this with an atempt to give the person the possibility to "do it right" the next time. Im nto saying you should simply treat every criminal as a patient, but you should not only focus ion punishment and dettering people. You should also try to combine the punishment with some sort of treatment/education giving the inmate the possibility to go legal after being released. All of this would of course have to be organised on a case by case basis. There is no simple formula for making people good that fits all people.
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    (Original post by tis_me_lord)
    Haven't read the replies but i would just like to point out that my mums prison sentences have always been massively decreased due to her mental illnesses, though she never did anything as serious as pedophelia, rape or murder.
    Paedophillia is a problem which has a lot of emotions attached to it. The public would be outraged if they saw what they perceived to be paedophiles getting off easily. While I don't think that public oppinion should dictate the law. I do believe that it has to be taken into account. This is why the sentances of paedophiles are unlikely to be reduced like those of people with other mental illnesses.
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    (Original post by randdom)
    Paedophillia is a problem which has a lot of emotions attached to it. The public would be outraged if they saw what they perceived to be paedophiles getting off easily. While I don't think that public oppinion should dictate the law. I do believe that it has to be taken into account. This is why the sentances of paedophiles are unlikely to be reduced like those of people with other mental illnesses.
    But once again, you punish people for their crimes, not their states of mind. You woant justify murder by saying you were very angry with the person, neither will you get a life sentence for wanting to kill someone if you never atempt to do so.
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    To some extent, yes. Im not saying we should treat drug dealers equivalently to, say, schizofrenic people, but if we wish to reduce crime the detterant factor of the punishment must be combined with a component of rehabilitation. If someone is sentenced to 5 years in prision the objective is obviously to detter that person from repeating the crime. Thus a wise thing to do may be to combine this with an atempt to give the person the possibility to "do it right" the next time. Im nto saying you should simply treat every criminal as a patient, but you should not only focus ion punishment and dettering people. You should also try to combine the punishment with some sort of treatment/education giving the inmate the possibility to go legal after being released. All of this would of course have to be organised on a case by case basis. There is no simple formula for making people good that fits all people.
    Perfectly idealistic points but the costs of diagnosing and treating personality disorders in prisoners would make any implementing government receive a bashing by right-wing groups in the polls!
    Basic rehab programmes integrated into smaller prison sentences would be a good idea, but they could not be individual for economic reasons so a "one size fits all" programme would not have an awful lot of benefit.
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    (Original post by timeofyourlife)
    Perfectly idealistic points but the costs of diagnosing and treating personality disorders in prisoners would make any implementing government receive a bashing by right-wing groups in the polls!
    Basic rehab programmes integrated into smaller prison sentences would be a good idea, but they could not be individual for economic reasons so a "one size fits all" programme would not have an awful lot of benefit.
    You could have individual programs for every inmate. If we can afford individual trials with the right for appeals in every case, then surely we could have follow ups for individual inmates. The truth of the matter is that such a rehab system would mainly be a question of reorganising the current system. I dont think we should remove prision as a punishment, but it should be coupled with rehabilitation.
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    You could have individual programs for every inmate. If we can afford individual trials with the right for appeals in every case, then surely we could have follow ups for individual inmates. The truth of the matter is that such a rehab system would mainly be a question of reorganising the current system. I dont think we should remove prision as a punishment, but it should be coupled with rehabilitation.
    The personality disorder would have to be identified for any effective rehab treatment. That would add quite a considerable cost onto the already failing prison system in terms of diagnosis. Could you see that going down well with the electorate, when other areas are in desperate need of cash?
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    But once again, you punish people for their crimes, not their states of mind. You woant justify murder by saying you were very angry with the person, neither will you get a life sentence for wanting to kill someone if you never atempt to do so.
    I know I was just pointing out why paedophiles are unlikely to have their sentances reduced even if it is a mental illness.
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    (Original post by timeofyourlife)
    The personality disorder would have to be identified for any effective rehab treatment. That would add quite a considerable cost onto the already failing prison system in terms of diagnosis. Could you see that going down well with the electorate, when other areas are in desperate need of cash?
    But surely the cost will be made up because if you treat people they will be less likely to re-offend therefore the prison system in the long run will have fewer people in it because fewer people re-offend.
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    (Original post by randdom)
    But surely the cost will be made up because if you treat people they will be less likely to re-offend therefore the prison system in the long run will have fewer people in it because fewer people re-offend.
    Long term and politics don't mix very well. Current government would be very reluctant increasing prison costs and getting bad reputation from the media just in the hope that re-offending figures would go down at some point in the future.
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    Someone pointed out (perhaps it was a few people) that chemical castration could be an option. But surely paedophillia is a "disorder of sexual preference" of the mind, not of the genitalia. I can see little compelling argument for castration, on the count of the fact that, and correct me if i am wrong here anyone who studies biology or even just knows, that whilst the genitalia produce "sex hormones", other hormones realted to enjoyment and happiness are produced by the brain. So if a paedophile we to enjoy, for reasons other than sexual excitement, the idea of a young child and various sex acts, would those that support castration also support psychosurgery to "cure their ills", as it were.

    I do, however, agree with what jonathon said about being punished for what you do, not what you think. However, perhaps paedophillia is like canabalism and otehr almost ritualistic crimes because it is so abhorrent to the whole of society that even thinking about it is considered dangerous and sick. A question i would like to put to the forum is: Even though we should clearly afford the basic civic and human rights to a convicted criminal, should we ever afford them the whole gammet of rights afforded to us ? I ask this question because some prisoners in England have a better standard of living than those in say, Cambodia or any developping nation, who have done nothing wrong. Is that fair ? I don't think so.
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    after watching a programme on paedophiles i learnt that many had been abused as children or grown up in terrible circumstances. so in some ways i can see why people cud feel almost sympathetic towards them.
    i think many paedophiles are psychologically scarred and therefore act in this disturbing way.
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    (Original post by tkfmbp)
    Someone pointed out (perhaps it was a few people) that chemical castration could be an option. But surely paedophillia is a "disorder of sexual preference" of the mind, not of the genitalia. I can see little compelling argument for castration, on the count of the fact that, and correct me if i am wrong here anyone who studies biology or even just knows, that whilst the genitalia produce "sex hormones", other hormones realted to enjoyment and happiness are produced by the brain. So if a paedophile we to enjoy, for reasons other than sexual excitement, the idea of a young child and various sex acts, would those that support castration also support psychosurgery to "cure their ills", as it were.

    I do, however, agree with what jonathon said about being punished for what you do, not what you think. However, perhaps paedophillia is like canabalism and otehr almost ritualistic crimes because it is so abhorrent to the whole of society that even thinking about it is considered dangerous and sick. A question i would like to put to the forum is: Even though we should clearly afford the basic civic and human rights to a convicted criminal, should we ever afford them the whole gammet of rights afforded to us ? I ask this question because some prisoners in England have a better standard of living than those in say, Cambodia or any developping nation, who have done nothing wrong. Is that fair ? I don't think so.
    Which is why I think it is unacceptable to regard crimes against humanity in other countries as "not our bussiness". If you can interfere to change the situation then you are partially responsible if you dont. Of course you arenot as responsible as those actually carrying out the crimes, but if you can prevent it with means of comparably little damage to yourself then Id say it is wrong not to do so. Although this is a question about international politics and should perhaps be discussed in another thread.
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    (Original post by timeofyourlife)
    Long term and politics don't mix very well. Current government would be very reluctant increasing prison costs and getting bad reputation from the media just in the hope that re-offending figures would go down at some point in the future.
    How do you then explain that these policies are practice in many countries ( read, Sweden / Norway ) and that these countries have much lower crime rates than Britain ? Longterm politics can be an important factor in elections because people worry not only about their present, but they also want to secure their future.
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    How do you then explain that these policies are practice in many countries ( read, Sweden / Norway ) and that these countries have much lower crime rates than Britain ?
    britain is just full of little shits hanging about the street and intoxicated football hooligans. not being stereotypical or anything
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    (Original post by timeofyourlife)
    The personality disorder would have to be identified for any effective rehab treatment. That would add quite a considerable cost onto the already failing prison system in terms of diagnosis. Could you see that going down well with the electorate, when other areas are in desperate need of cash?
    I think you exhagurate the cost needed. If you would take these measures prision times would not have to be the same length as the same effect could often be achieved with shorter prision times. This would counteract the increased costs of diagnosis. Shorter prision tsentences means fewer inmates at a given time which means less personel and security systems required, lower costs of maintainment etc etc... I think you could actually balanc it out to be no great net cost of changing the system.
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    I think you exhagurate the cost needed. If you would take these measures prision times would not have to be the same length as the same effect could often be achieved with shorter prision times. This would counteract the increased costs of diagnosis. Shorter prision tsentences means fewer inmates at a given time which means less personel and security systems required, lower costs of maintainment etc etc... I think you could actually balanc it out to be no great net cost of changing the system.
    Here here. It would also mean that the politicians could score points with the public by reducing prison intakes and sizes. And surely that's what the decision would be ultimately made on, politics ?
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    hmmm, how exactly has paedophilia evolved into politics?
 
 
 
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