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    There aren't any.

    Vote Leave.
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    Agree. Particularly if you ask people would they join the EU now and they say no, but they're happy to vote remain anyway.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    Of course there are.

    This kind of attitude of not accepting the legitimacy of points made by the opposite side is just abusive and it doesn't make you seem like the very sensible and mature debater which I'm sure you are. The attitude of the OP contributes nothing meaningful at all to those of us interested in having an open and honest discussion about the future of our country. It's cheap, it's nasty, it's arrogant and it's actually distasteful.

    Like I would accept there are valid reasons for wanting to leave the European Union, so too should you accept that there are valid reasons for wanting to remain in the European Union. Now, here's the reposted list:

    1. Being a member of the EU gives me, as a British citizen, the right to live, work and study anywhere in the EU - meaning that I have more opportunity and that I have access to the resources of 28 member states, not just one. This is also guaranteed to my children and their own children - the individual opportunity offered by the European Union. I can move more easily wherever there are the jobs, the educational courses or the standards of living that I want in life. This should be something exciting and something that makes us proud to call ourselves citizens of the European Union: we have the ability to live our lives to the fullest extent and we have a better ability to lead our lives how we want to live them, just as British citizens, thanks to the freedoms and opportunities guaranteed by our membership of the European Union.

    2. Being a member of the EU enables the great problems of the world to be solved. I don't like the EU - I prefer a liberal, fully-democratic, fully-devolved United States of Europe that focuses on the big issues of today and not on menial regulations like how much water our toilets can flush. Nonetheless, the EU facilitates intergovernmental discussion and action on the big global issues simply insurmountable by being Little Englanders - like climate change, terrorism and the biggest refugee crisis since the Second World War. By being members of the EU, the UK can help solve the world's largest problems and those which will ultimately define our generation in the history books of tomorrow.

    3. If we were to leave the EU, we would be giving a mandate for right-wing politicians like Nigel Farage, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson to take over British politics. This is worrying as many of the policies supported by individual Brexiteers are harrowing - such as scrapping sick pay, abolishing maternity leave, bringing hanging back, ending same-sex marriage, building more fossil-fuelled power stations, privatising the NHS, abolishing the BBC, etc.. Many of these politicians (and indeed businesses) want to leave the EU because they believe that the EU has too many regulations - not "too many regulations" because this damages businesses (the UK does actually have one of the freest markets in the continent, if not the West), but because these regulations prevent them from unleashing their own totalitarian agendas on the UK. Brexit is one step closer to a Tory totalitarian state and much of the reason why these politicians support leaving the EU is because it is necessary if they want to build this totalitarian state. It's ironic how the Brexiteers argue about the threat of TTIP, when actually they themselves support these policies that will unleash the exact same thing as TTIP allegedly would on our country - not to mention, anyway, that the UK parliament will be able to veto TTIP because it must come to vote in the parliaments of all 28 member states of the European Union for it to be ratified. (I have had this argument deconstructed in the past with no further rebuttals, I should mention).

    4. Leaving the EU would worsen the UK's international influence. Governments around the world - from the United States to India - are arguing that if the UK were to leave the EU, the UK would lose its clout on the world stage as a result of economic decline and heightened inability to affect regional geopolitics (so, ironically, the Brexiteers saying that Germany has too much power would just hand even more power to the Germans and the French by leaving the EU). The UK's power could also be weakened in the event of Scotland leaving the UK after the UK leaves the EU. This would call into question the UK's permanent seat on the UN Security Council, its standing in many international organisations and its importance in NATO. Arguments stating that we should leave in order to heighten ties with the Commonwealth are frankly delusional - if we win, it is on an anti-immigration, isolationist agenda, not on liberal, internationalist reasoning.

    5. There is no sound economic basis for 'Leave' arguments. There has been not a single reputable, independent study of the impacts of Brexit that has not concluded that, at least in the short-term, the UK economy would suffer a decline in GDP of up to 2% - worse than the 2008 financial crisis - and one study even suggested that this could lead to the pound shedding 20% imminently, harming investor confidence and significantly weakening the UK economy. These factors would attribute to greater unemployment, lower wages and less investment into the United Kingdom. Crucially, there is also strong economic consensus on the inevitability of these adverse impacts - a consensus of about 4 out of 5 economists. Yes, the 'Leave' campaign is right to note that a similar consensus also existed for the UK joining the euro over a decade ago, but unlike in the euro consensus, we have proof that this consensus is entirely right: investor confidence in the UK is at its lowest in nine years as a result of the threat of Brexit; the pound plummeted 2% when Boris Johnson announced he would leave the EU and just two days ago, when the ICM poll showing 'Leave' ahead broke, the pound again dropped sharply against the dollar. There is proof that the economic arguments against 'Leave' are right - and that Brexit would be devastating to the UK's economy. It is conclusively evident, therefore, that Brexit would hurt our national economy not in an act of patriotism, but in an act of grievous self-harm. Yes, the 'Leave' campaign is right to note that there are some economic benefits to leaving the European Union - like leaving the CFP - but it has been proven that these small economic benefits would not come even close to outweighing the economic drawbacks of Brexit, which is why no reputable, independent economic study supporting Brexit in the short-term has ever been published.

    6. If the UK were to leave the EU, Scotland could vote to leave the UK. The economic arguments against Scottish nationalism destroyed the 'Yes' campaign in 2014, but these economic arguments could disappear if the UK left the EU because the UK's own economy would be shattered. Like the 'Leave' campaign now argues (falsely) that the UK leaving the EU is analogous to leaving a sinking economic ship, so too can the 'Yes' campaign argue that Scotland leaving the UK is analogous to leaving a sinking economic ship. As a result, Scotland could vote for independence and rejoin the EU for greater economic stability. If Scotland were to leave the UK, the UK would undoubtedly lose much of its power - as well as a third of its territory and a tenth of its population - leading to further irrelevance on the international stage.

    7. The 'Leave' campaign has frankly been insulting. I don't want to be like Norway or Albania, thank you. I want to be Britain - open-minded, forwards-thinking, outwards-looking, reaching years into the future and not decades into the past.

    8. If were to leave the EU, the peace process in Ireland and Northern Ireland could be damaged. The Irish government recently announced that border controls could be reinstated in the event of Brexit; this could stoke tensions at the border and unravel the peace process, meaning that Brexit would be the single most harmful act to said peace process in forty years. This is not scaremongering, nor is it an unlikely eventuality: in the event of Brexit, the close ties between the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom - which are enshrined in everything from the Common Travel Area to Irish voting rights - would mean that EU immigrants wishing to enter the UK would be able to do so through entering Ireland as EU immigrants and then entering the UK as Irish arrivals, taking advantage of open borders facing different directions. One Commissioner has warned that this would lead to Ireland becoming something like a second Calais for entering Britain. Inevitably, this means that if the new government wanted to actually control immigration - which it would have a mandate and a responsibility to do so because this is a promise of the 'Leave' campaign - then the new UK government would inevitably have to close the Anglo-Irish border, disrupting the lives of 600,000 Irish citizens that regularly travel in and out of the United Kingdom and threatening the peace process of the past forty years. Again, this is not an impossible eventuality, nor is it remotely unlikely: it is quite possible that the borders will have to close for meaningful control of immigration and, as a result, that there could be further implications on the peace process between Ireland and Northern Ireland. In my view, this could lead to Northern Ireland voting to leave the UK and rejoin the EU as an independent, sovereign nation if no conclusive agreement is reached (leading to the UK's influence, territory and economy further weakening) - but this is much less probable.

    9. I believe in a liberal, fully-devolved, fully-democratic United States of Europe that sets the standards worldwide. The European Union is a necessary evil on a step to such a political union, which would give the UK infinitely more power and leverage worldwide - as well as a stronger economy. The year is 2016, not 1916; we have stopped fighting the Germans and the Austrians and as globalisation takes the world by storm, the only sensible response is for our own society and economy to globalise and join forces with our former European foes for the good of tomorrow, so that we appreciate the diversity in our societies and ensure that we remain strong powers in an increasingly-polarised international world, exporting our cherished national values of liberty and openness further afield than Europe.
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    I would add the protection that the social chapter gives on working hours and a minimum level of holidays.
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    OUT OUT OUT

    Shut up you left wing *****


    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by ATW1)
    There aren't any.

    Vote Leave.
    How about the compensation you are entitled to when you holiday flight is late? Or the fact you can register your trademark across the whole of Europe with one form?
    • Political Ambassador
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    (Original post by Southwestern)
    Of course there are.

    This kind of attitude of not accepting the legitimacy of points made by the opposite side is just abusive and it doesn't make you seem like the very sensible and mature debater which I'm sure you are. The attitude of the OP contributes nothing meaningful at all to those of us interested in having an open and honest discussion about the future of our country. It's cheap, it's nasty, it's arrogant and it's actually distasteful.

    Like I would accept there are valid reasons for wanting to leave the European Union, so too should you accept that there are valid reasons for wanting to remain in the European Union. Now, here's the reposted list:

    1. Being a member of the EU gives me, as a British citizen, the right to live, work and study anywhere in the EU - meaning that I have more opportunity and that I have access to the resources of 28 member states, not just one. This is also guaranteed to my children and their own children - the individual opportunity offered by the European Union. I can move more easily wherever there are the jobs, the educational courses or the standards of living that I want in life. This should be something exciting and something that makes us proud to call ourselves citizens of the European Union: we have the ability to live our lives to the fullest extent and we have a better ability to lead our lives how we want to live them, just as British citizens, thanks to the freedoms and opportunities guaranteed by our membership of the European Union.

    2. Being a member of the EU enables the great problems of the world to be solved. I don't like the EU - I prefer a liberal, fully-democratic, fully-devolved United States of Europe that focuses on the big issues of today and not on menial regulations like how much water our toilets can flush. Nonetheless, the EU facilitates intergovernmental discussion and action on the big global issues simply insurmountable by being Little Englanders - like climate change, terrorism and the biggest refugee crisis since the Second World War. By being members of the EU, the UK can help solve the world's largest problems and those which will ultimately define our generation in the history books of tomorrow.

    3. If we were to leave the EU, we would be giving a mandate for right-wing politicians like Nigel Farage, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson to take over British politics. This is worrying as many of the policies supported by individual Brexiteers are harrowing - such as scrapping sick pay, abolishing maternity leave, bringing hanging back, ending same-sex marriage, building more fossil-fuelled power stations, privatising the NHS, abolishing the BBC, etc.. Many of these politicians (and indeed businesses) want to leave the EU because they believe that the EU has too many regulations - not "too many regulations" because this damages businesses (the UK does actually have one of the freest markets in the continent, if not the West), but because these regulations prevent them from unleashing their own totalitarian agendas on the UK. Brexit is one step closer to a Tory totalitarian state and much of the reason why these politicians support leaving the EU is because it is necessary if they want to build this totalitarian state. It's ironic how the Brexiteers argue about the threat of TTIP, when actually they themselves support these policies that will unleash the exact same thing as TTIP allegedly would on our country - not to mention, anyway, that the UK parliament will be able to veto TTIP because it must come to vote in the parliaments of all 28 member states of the European Union for it to be ratified. (I have had this argument deconstructed in the past with no further rebuttals, I should mention).

    4. Leaving the EU would worsen the UK's international influence. Governments around the world - from the United States to India - are arguing that if the UK were to leave the EU, the UK would lose its clout on the world stage as a result of economic decline and heightened inability to affect regional geopolitics (so, ironically, the Brexiteers saying that Germany has too much power would just hand even more power to the Germans and the French by leaving the EU). The UK's power could also be weakened in the event of Scotland leaving the UK after the UK leaves the EU. This would call into question the UK's permanent seat on the UN Security Council, its standing in many international organisations and its importance in NATO. Arguments stating that we should leave in order to heighten ties with the Commonwealth are frankly delusional - if we win, it is on an anti-immigration, isolationist agenda, not on liberal, internationalist reasoning.

    5. There is no sound economic basis for 'Leave' arguments. There has been not a single reputable, independent study of the impacts of Brexit that has not concluded that, at least in the short-term, the UK economy would suffer a decline in GDP of up to 2% - worse than the 2008 financial crisis - and one study even suggested that this could lead to the pound shedding 20% imminently, harming investor confidence and significantly weakening the UK economy. These factors would attribute to greater unemployment, lower wages and less investment into the United Kingdom. Crucially, there is also strong economic consensus on the inevitability of these adverse impacts - a consensus of about 4 out of 5 economists. Yes, the 'Leave' campaign is right to note that a similar consensus also existed for the UK joining the euro over a decade ago, but unlike in the euro consensus, we have proof that this consensus is entirely right: investor confidence in the UK is at its lowest in nine years as a result of the threat of Brexit; the pound plummeted 2% when Boris Johnson announced he would leave the EU and just two days ago, when the ICM poll showing 'Leave' ahead broke, the pound again dropped sharply against the dollar. There is proof that the economic arguments against 'Leave' are right - and that Brexit would be devastating to the UK's economy. It is conclusively evident, therefore, that Brexit would hurt our national economy not in an act of patriotism, but in an act of grievous self-harm. Yes, the 'Leave' campaign is right to note that there are some economic benefits to leaving the European Union - like leaving the CFP - but it has been proven that these small economic benefits would not come even close to outweighing the economic drawbacks of Brexit, which is why no reputable, independent economic study supporting Brexit in the short-term has ever been published.

    6. If the UK were to leave the EU, Scotland could vote to leave the UK. The economic arguments against Scottish nationalism destroyed the 'Yes' campaign in 2014, but these economic arguments could disappear if the UK left the EU because the UK's own economy would be shattered. Like the 'Leave' campaign now argues (falsely) that the UK leaving the EU is analogous to leaving a sinking economic ship, so too can the 'Yes' campaign argue that Scotland leaving the UK is analogous to leaving a sinking economic ship. As a result, Scotland could vote for independence and rejoin the EU for greater economic stability. If Scotland were to leave the UK, the UK would undoubtedly lose much of its power - as well as a third of its territory and a tenth of its population - leading to further irrelevance on the international stage.

    7. The 'Leave' campaign has frankly been insulting. I don't want to be like Norway or Albania, thank you. I want to be Britain - open-minded, forwards-thinking, outwards-looking, reaching years into the future and not decades into the past.

    8. If were to leave the EU, the peace process in Ireland and Northern Ireland could be damaged. The Irish government recently announced that border controls could be reinstated in the event of Brexit; this could stoke tensions at the border and unravel the peace process, meaning that Brexit would be the single most harmful act to said peace process in forty years. This is not scaremongering, nor is it an unlikely eventuality: in the event of Brexit, the close ties between the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom - which are enshrined in everything from the Common Travel Area to Irish voting rights - would mean that EU immigrants wishing to enter the UK would be able to do so through entering Ireland as EU immigrants and then entering the UK as Irish arrivals, taking advantage of open borders facing different directions. One Commissioner has warned that this would lead to Ireland becoming something like a second Calais for entering Britain. Inevitably, this means that if the new government wanted to actually control immigration - which it would have a mandate and a responsibility to do so because this is a promise of the 'Leave' campaign - then the new UK government would inevitably have to close the Anglo-Irish border, disrupting the lives of 600,000 Irish citizens that regularly travel in and out of the United Kingdom and threatening the peace process of the past forty years. Again, this is not an impossible eventuality, nor is it remotely unlikely: it is quite possible that the borders will have to close for meaningful control of immigration and, as a result, that there could be further implications on the peace process between Ireland and Northern Ireland. In my view, this could lead to Northern Ireland voting to leave the UK and rejoin the EU as an independent, sovereign nation if no conclusive agreement is reached (leading to the UK's influence, territory and economy further weakening) - but this is much less probable.

    9. I believe in a liberal, fully-devolved, fully-democratic United States of Europe that sets the standards worldwide. The European Union is a necessary evil on a step to such a political union, which would give the UK infinitely more power and leverage worldwide - as well as a stronger economy. The year is 2016, not 1916; we have stopped fighting the Germans and the Austrians and as globalisation takes the world by storm, the only sensible response is for our own society and economy to globalise and join forces with our former European foes for the good of tomorrow, so that we appreciate the diversity in our societies and ensure that we remain strong powers in an increasingly-polarised international world, exporting our cherished national values of liberty and openness further afield than Europe.
    Well, somebody took this way to seriously, needless to say its the person that is incapable of a post shorter than a thousand words, expecting people to read the posts.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
 
 
 
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