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Feminism is about inequality Watch

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    To me the purpose of feminism is to give women all the same opportunities and privileges as men but none of the same expectations and responsibilities.

    So the ideal scenario for a feminist would be: a woman should be paid the same, get good jobs as easily but also be allowed to take a few years out to raise children AND come back where she left off even though she is deskilled AND not be expected to work at all because..."well er that's ok too"

    Am I missing something here or does feminism sound like it's trying to promote inequality?!
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    You're missing the fact that toxic feminists aren't representative of all feminists.
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    (Original post by tomlam)
    You're missing the fact that toxic feminists aren't representative of all feminists.
    They seem to make up a large proportion of the movement though, or at least the vocal section. And this depends on what you consider toxic feminists, because to me even someone like Emma Watson is a "toxic feminist" because she still believes in a wage gap.
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    (Original post by tomlam)
    You're missing the fact that toxic feminists aren't representative of all feminists.
    It ain't quite that straightforward though. I think that what's really happened is the definition of feminism has changed.

    These days, people who don't identify as feminists - and I count myself as such a person - fully support women's suffrage, equal pay for men and women, equal opportunities for men and women and the like. Even if we don't identify as feminists, we by and large fully stand for gender equality.

    On the other hand, 'feminist' lobbyists and campaigners' views are increasingly shifting to the more extreme end of the spectrum, where they demand gender quotas and legal protections for women which exceed those of men. When someone says that they are a feminist, they are presumed to support these more extreme aspects of feminism because most people who identify as feminists do.

    The definition of feminism has pretty much become synonymous with radical feminism, and those who would be considered feminists by the standards of 30+ years ago are simply people who believe in equality - I much prefer to identify as an egalitarian myself.
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    (Original post by Asiimov)
    They seem to make up a large proportion of the movement though, or at least the vocal section. And this depends on what you consider toxic feminists, because to me even someone like Emma Watson is a "toxic feminist" because she still believes in a wage gap.
    A wage gap does exist mate but it's small and in select professions only, not across the board. The real wage gap adjusted for hours and profession type is only about 2-4% but it's still there so there is still something that needs to be done.

    It does come back to the vocal people; with any movement, the more vocal people are the more extreme. So yes I agree with you, some feminists are misandrists but that doesn't mean that feminism is all about misandry.
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    (Original post by tomlam)
    A wage gap does exist mate but it's small and in select professions only, not across the board. The real wage gap adjusted for hours and profession type is only about 2-4% but it's still there so there is still something that needs to be done.

    It does come back to the vocal people; with any movement, the more vocal people are the more extreme. So yes I agree with you, some feminists are misandrists but that doesn't mean that feminism is all about misandry.
    The adjusted wage gap exists yes, but the claim that it is due to sexism is what I take issue with. Even that 2-4% cannot be straight away placed on sexism.
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    (Original post by tomlam)
    You're missing the fact that toxic feminists aren't representative of all feminists.
    Feminism's quite the web of monstrosity, you've got "kill all men" strange people, moving on to the only slightly more sane "women should have more rights", followed by those who buy into the concept of patriarchy who at least have functioning brain cells, then you get the usual average ones who don't bother fact checking rape statistics or pay statistics, and then proceed to shout about problems they could easily reveal as none-existent if they bothered to check their sources for a couple of minutes.

    Anybody claiming to be feminist that doesn't fit in to any of those groups is what I would deem actually acceptable. Now how many people does that leave us with?
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    (Original post by tomlam)
    You're missing the fact that toxic feminists aren't representative of all feminists.
    Toxic now? wtf?
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    (Original post by Asiimov)
    The adjusted wage gap exists yes, but the claim that it is due to sexism is what I take issue with. Even that 2-4% cannot be straight away placed on sexism.
    It's still an issue though, still something that needs to be combatted.
    Besides, with cases like Emma Watson, the gender pay gap is one of the highest in acting out of all professions so it's understandable that she's a campaigner considering that some female actors are paid half of their male counterparts for the same level of fame or similar leading roles.
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    (Original post by ODES_PDES)
    Toxic now? wtf?
    Alas, I can't glean from your post whether you're criticising the fact that I said some feminists wre toxic or whether you think feminists deserve a stronger word than toxic.
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    (Original post by tomlam)
    It's still an issue though, still something that needs to be combatted.
    Besides, with cases like Emma Watson, the gender pay gap is one of the highest in acting out of all professions so it's understandable that she's a campaigner considering that some female actors are paid half of their male counterparts for the same level of fame or similar leading roles.
    Not necessarily unless it can be proven that it's down to sexism. Otherwise it would just be individuals own choices, and who are we to change those?

    As for the acting jobs, I don't think that has been shown to be due to sexism. Negotiation, and like you said, level of fame and role, all come in to play.
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    (Original post by Asiimov)
    Not necessarily unless it can be proven that it's down to sexism. Otherwise it would just be individuals own choices, and who are we to change those?

    As for the acting jobs, I don't think that has been shown to be due to sexism. Negotiation, and like you said, level of fame and role, all come in to play.
    I wouldn't see why a woman's choices would be that fundamentally different from a man's choices, the statistic I quoted takes into account choices such as being a stay-at-home mother. Again, it's not all down to sexism in the workplace, but we have to note that in some cases, it can affect the pay gap and it does in practice.

    With the acting jpbs, I suppose negotiation does come into it but my fundamental argument is why is there such a distinct pay gap in the sector? Do most female actors have poor wage negotiators? I find that hard to believe that it's all down to what you say. I'll give you an example, Jennifer Lawrence was paid half of what Peter got paid for in a particular Hunger Games movie. Now I'm sure negotiation and other factors you statedplayed a role in this but it would be foolish of me to say that sexism played no role in this at all. By that argument and that argument alone, this wage gap is an issue whether you assign it to gender or other reasons.
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    (Original post by tomlam)
    I wouldn't see why a woman's choices would be that fundamentally different from a man's choices, the statistic I quoted takes into account choices such as being a stay-at-home mother. Again, it's not all down to sexism in the workplace, but we have to note that in some cases, it can affect the pay gap and it does in practice.

    With the acting jpbs, I suppose negotiation does come into it but my fundamental argument is why is there such a distinct pay gap in the sector? Do most female actors have poor wage negotiators? I find that hard to believe that it's all down to what you say. I'll give you an example, Jennifer Lawrence was paid half of what Peter got paid for in a particular Hunger Games movie. Now I'm sure negotiation and other factors you statedplayed a role in this but it would be foolish of me to say that sexism played no role in this at all. By that argument and that argument alone, this wage gap is an issue whether you assign it to gender or other reasons.
    I don't know either maybe it's biological factors, maybe it's just socialisation, maybe it's both.

    I believe Jennifer being paid half isn't true. From what I've found she was actually paid much more for the 2nd movie at least, than either of the two male leads.

    The wage gap is only an issue if it is down to sexism. If it's other reasons then there's no reason to try and change it.
 
 
 
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