Discussion: Posting full solutions

zrancis

We do appreciate you being here helping people out, however, posting full solutions is frowned upon by the powers that be - and most of the users for that fact!
So do continue helping people but not spoonfeeding answers.

Well personally if I am going wrong somewhere I like to see a worked example. I don't see the logic behind not giving full solutions unless it's specifically requested by those who are requiring it (for their own personal satisfaction). If a teacher was asked that question they would also go through it the same way I had done whilst explaining the steps, so perhaps some reconsideration is in order. I can understand why people might frown upon posting full answers, but isn't this revision(?) not homework.

Reply 3

zrancis

2

Plummie

funnily enough though zrancis though it is correct it's not the method i'm supposed to be using so i shall carry on figuring it out once I've finished the rest of the book. Oh the joys of FP2

I can only assume they want you to go down the cos(4x)=cos(2x+2x) and use the double angle expression.

moondemon

Well personally if I am going wrong somewhere I like to see a worked example. I don't see the logic behind not giving full solutions unless it's specifically requested by those who are requiring it (for their own personal satisfaction). If a teacher was asked that question they would also go through it the same way I had done whilst explaining the steps, so perhaps some reconsideration is in order. I can understand why people might frown upon posting full answers, but isn't this revision(?) not homework.

I do understand your point but especially with questions that are such a grind, it's not always appropriate to do a step by step working for the question. Some gentle hints and persuasion are much more satisfying for the OP - plus as of late, people have been expecting full solutions, some without even saying please! So we try keep the sub-forum under the academic 'help' section and not academic 'answers'.

Reply 4

moondemon

Well personally if I am going wrong somewhere I like to see a worked example. I don't see the logic behind not giving full solutions unless it's specifically requested by those who are requiring it (for their own personal satisfaction). If a teacher was asked that question they would also go through it the same way I had done whilst explaining the steps, so perhaps some reconsideration is in order. I can understand why people might frown upon posting full answers, but isn't this revision(?) not homework.

We do appreciate this, but full solutions help no one. You get so much more out of figuring something out on your own than you do from reading what someone else has done. Even if you're not the sort of person to try and pass it off as your own work / read through it and assume you know it (and we don't assume everyone here is, but some are!), you simply cannot read through a solution and then go back to the mindset you had before it. You can see why it works, but not the train of thought required to get to it.

Besides, we generally assume most people here have at least a textbook and most have notebooks from school, all of which provide worked examples - we're not being textbooks for anyone. No offence was intended, but please don't post full solutions from now on unless something really is trivial or unless the person posting the question has received a significant amount of help but is obviously still struggling. :smile:

Full solutions do nothing, I generally ignore people who give me full solutions when I ask for help on questions on here.

Reply 5

Well I must say that's fairly patronising to say the least. "Full solutions help no one" is hardly an accurate statement. A solution had already been attempted, at that stage, being able to compare my line of reasoning with a correct solution would be the quickest way to correct my errors, and would show me where I am going wrong. It would correct the line of reasoning rather than reinvent it, and we don't have time for such reinvention. Telling someone to do what they may have already done wrongly doesn't help at all. Fortunately I can respect the rules of the forums despite my belief this particular rule comes from a general invalid assumption.

Reply 6

insparato

OP

15

Except the fact is the OP did not post lines of reasoning at all. By showing them what to do, aren't you in fact reinventing the whole thing? By hinting a method to use, the person needing help is in fact having to think about what they are doing and once it clicks they will remember. If you post a full solution and the person needing help reads it they will think oh yeah i see that now. But i guarantee you know in 3,4 months time if you need to recall it. It will be much harder if you have just seen the solution and have not done it/thought about it yourself.

Reply 7

insparato

Except the fact is the OP did not post lines of reasoning at all. By showing them what to do, aren't you in fact reinventing the whole thing? By hinting a method to use, the person needing help is in fact having to think about what they are doing and once it clicks they will remember. If you post a full solution and the person needing help reads it they will think oh yeah i see that now. But i guarantee you know in 3,4 months time if you need to recall it. It will be much harder if you have just seen the solution and have not done it/thought about it yourself.

Well in that case are you suggesting that it would be ok to post a full solution given that the lines of reasoning are included? I was merely acting on the notion that some line of reasoning was actually in place. I am not reinventing any lines of reasoning, merely providing a question-specific solution that can be used for comparison purposes. In fact, a particular solution to a problem is deemed better than a general solution since it takes understanding to be able to apply it in more than one situation. Also I can't see why a full solution would make it harder, to me if you don't understand a step it's a clear indication of a lack of understanding in a particular area. It was suggested that this lack of understanding may be translated into a "just do it" method, but that is also untrue since it's not in a general format, and it takes understanding to translate it to a general format. A lot of people here like me have a passion for maths, and finding your own solutions is essential, so I can understand why you may feel the need to argue the point that worked solutions are bad, but with my 14th exam coming up, I have come to realise that there really is no point taking the moral highground for the sake of it, you had that chance when you were studying it.

On a slightly more law-abiding tone :wink:

if you don't want me to post full solutions, that's totally fine, but I would be more satisfied if someone was to provide me with some clear reasoning as to why I shouldn't.

Reply 8

moondemon

Well I must say that's fairly patronising to say the least. "Full solutions help no one" is hardly an accurate statement. A solution had already been attempted, at that stage, being able to compare my line of reasoning with a correct solution would be the quickest way to correct my errors

Now, I don't doubt it'd be the quickest way. And if it was a small mistake at the end like missing a minus sign or something then it would've been the best and most effective way. But if it was a pretty major mistake, or a mistake near the beginning, then within ten seconds the OP has already seen your entire solution and is no longer in a position to reproduce it himself other than from immediate short-term memory, which won't be of any use to him tomorrow, given that this is FP2, where the questions vary fundamentally (albeit very slightly) every year, and not GCSE.

moondemon

Telling someone to do what they may have already done wrongly doesn't help at all. Fortunately I can respect the rules of the forums despite my belief this particular rule comes from a general invalid assumption.

Well, I told them to post their working, which they definitely didn't do wrongly. They didn't post it at all, they said they "used the z thingy". You'd be surprised at the number of people who came to these forums specifically asking for full solutions, and who received them, and who two days later posted an almost identical question with a slight twist in it. No mathematical thinking in it whatsoever, they've just seen the solution, accidentally committed it to memory, and not been able to adapt it because while they know it works, they don't know how we've arrived at the train of thought we've taken. It might be a standard technique, or it might be one of us showing off a novel approach - both have their flaws.

moondemon

Well in that case are you suggesting that it would be ok to post a full solution given that the lines of reasoning are included? I was merely acting on the notion that some line of reasoning was actually in place.

You're more than welcome to post a full solution if it's obvious that the OP has tried and you've pushed them a bit further on and they've still tried and failed. Full solutions are a last resort, for the reasons I've given above.

moondemon

It was suggested that this lack of understanding may be translated into a "just do it" method, but that is also untrue since it's not in a general format, and it takes understanding to translate it to a general format.

= the point. If it's not "general" (and no full solution ever is :wink:

), they'll go away and assume they know all there is to know and then as soon as a tiny variation pops up they'll be stuck and come back to us. Waste of our efforts... and theirs, if they're genuinely trying to learn a topic, but everything they're learning is far too specific to be of any use to them.

moondemon

A lot of people here like me have a passion for maths, and finding your own solutions is essential, so I can understand why you may feel the need to argue the point that worked solutions are bad, but with my 14th exam coming up, I have come to realise that there really is no point taking the moral highground for the sake of it, you had that chance when you were studying it.

No one's taking the moral high ground here - it's not a case of "don't learn how to do this question, sit here for three hours while I explain the theory". I'm fully aware of the need for pragmatism, but I'm not trying to convey what a lovely subject maths is, I'm just making sure I don't give the impression that all maths can be done by studying enough solutions and not doing any questions yourself. And as I said, if someone's understanding of a topic is so flawed that they genuinely need you to type out an entire solution, then they're not gonna survive when the question changes slightly. That's why we say hints are the way forward, and not full solutions; hints encourage you to think a problem through for yourself so that you have an aim in mind and you find out for yourself what's necessary to accomplish that aim, but full solutions only provide you with "what people do if they want to find the answer this question", rather than "how to solve questions like this".

Reply 9

How do you test your understanding of a topic? I do questions. Does that mean if I can do 1 question it means I have a full understanding of the entire topic? No. So if someone posts a worked solution, do they assume that's all they need to know on that topic? That's a fairly convoluted concept to prove a nonexistent point if I ever did hear one. People don't memorise worked solutions, they learn from them. Answering questions can tell you what you know and what you don't know, just as reading through worked solutions can tell you what you know and what you don't know. If someone posts 2 similar questions, then is probably the time to attack their understanding.

Reply 10

nota bene

15

^ thing is that we often see people posting similar questions...

I sometimes post full solutions myself, but it is not what I do at first - it is usually more rewarding for both parts to give hints. There will be more thought (and learning) for the OP, and I don't always want to type up long-winded algebra that the person will be able to do him/herself.

Reply 11

moondemon

How do you test your understanding of a topic? I do questions. Does that mean if I can do 1 question it means I have a full understanding of the entire topic? No. So if someone posts a worked solution, do they assume that's all they need to know on that topic? That's a fairly convoluted concept to prove a nonexistent point if I ever did hear one. People don't memorise worked solutions, they learn from them. Answering questions can tell you what you know and what you don't know, just as reading through worked solutions can tell you what you know and what you don't know. If someone posts 2 similar questions, then is probably the time to attack their understanding.

No offence, but you've made 27 posts on this board. I've made more than I care to admit to and I've seen people do it countless times. You might know all this, just as well as I do, but that doesn't change the fact that there are people out there who think that if they've seen a solution to a problem, they could reproduce it under exam conditions.

Besides which, you haven't answered half of what I've said. :s-smilie:

Of course people memorise full solutions. If I see how to do a question I've been struggling on laid bare in front of me, I'll remember it two hours later whether I try to or not, and I'll never be able to do that question without having some idea how to approach it already, having already seen it. Maybe for GCSE this is a good thing (though it certainly doesn't encourage the kind of passion for maths that you and I share and want others to share). It's not for A-level, certainly not for further maths. More annoying is when it's done for STEP. But all this is irrelevant. Full solutions are discouraged for the reasons I've given above whether you agree with them or not - they are decent acceptable propositions, whether you like them or not.

Reply 12

generalebriety

No offence, but you've made 27 posts on this board. I've made more than I care to admit to and I've seen people do it countless times. You might know all this, just as well as I do, but that doesn't change the fact that there are people out there who think that if they've seen a solution to a problem, they could reproduce it under exam conditions.

Besides which, you haven't answered half of what I've said. :s-smilie:

Of course people memorise full solutions. If I see how to do a question I've been struggling on laid bare in front of me, I'll remember it two hours later whether I try to or not, and I'll never be able to do that question without having some idea how to approach it already, having already seen it. Maybe for GCSE this is a good thing (though it certainly doesn't encourage the kind of passion for maths that you and I share and want others to share). It's not for A-level, certainly not for further maths. More annoying is when it's done for STEP. But all this is irrelevant. Full solutions are discouraged for the reasons I've given above whether you agree with them or not - they are decent acceptable propositions, whether you like them or not.

I don't claim to know what the situation here is, I just claim to know people are in charge of their own learning and will reap what they sow. I didn't actually see any questions of yours to answer :s-smilie:

and the only thing I can really make out is "it encourages people to memorise solutions" and "it's harder to remember". I have never come across anyone who thought seeing a solution to 1 problem gives them the ability to reproduce a question specific solution under exam conditions of the same topic (perhaps you know of someone?), let alone try to memorise worked examples. I can't argue the rules of this forum either way I look at it, and as I have pointed out, I understand where you're coming from (I would probably call it "encouraging good practice") but the condescending tones and flakey points just bug me. Chances are, if people are the way you say they are, you aren't gonna change them.

Reply 13

moondemon

I don't claim to know what the situation here is, I just claim to know people are in charge of their own learning and will reap what they sow. I didn't actually see any questions of yours to answer :s-smilie:

and the only thing I can really make out is "it encourages people to memorise solutions" and "it's harder to remember". I have never come across anyone who thought seeing a solution to 1 problem gives them the ability to reproduce a question specific solution under exam conditions of the same topic (perhaps you know of someone?), let alone try to memorise worked examples. I can't argue the rules of this forum either way I look at it, and as I have pointed out, I understand where you're coming from (I would probably call it "encouraging good practice") but the condescending tones and flakey points just bug me. Chances are, if people are the way you say they are, you aren't gonna change them.

I'm not being condescending, nor are my points "flakey". You're just not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying people will sit down and intentionally memorise them. I'm saying that seeing a full solution will mean that the next time you try to do that question you'll immediately know exactly how the entire method is gonna go and not have a clue what thought process went into that. And if the question varies slightly and you try and do it by the same method and you don't get the answer out, you won't have a clue where to go because this maths that you're reproducing isn't your own, it's a memory of what someone else did. A much more obvious example (and also FP2, on my syllabus at least) is conics. You need to have the ability to think your way round a problem when you're given a shape and told "prove that a^2 + b^2 = 2pqat-2512stap5^2sgsd + 32sdradfs" as conics questions on A-level papers often do. And seeing a solution to one of those will not help you with any single other question because they're all so different and seemingly obscure. You need hints and poking and prodding in the right direction to be able to develop the mathematical dexterity to look at a huge equation that spans the page and see where it comes from, and the courage to keep working at it till it comes out. You don't get that from reading solutions.

Back to something else you said...

moondemon

people are in charge of their own learning and will reap what they sow. [...] if people are the way you say they are, you aren't gonna change them.

That's why helpers are discouraged from giving full solutions. If people don't expect them from us, they won't ask. Personally I believe that no matter how much people want to sabotage their own education, we shouldn't help them do so.

Reply 14

generalebriety

I'm not being condescending, nor are my points "flakey". You're just not understanding what I'm saying.

lol what was that you said about not being condescending? I understand exactly what you're saying I just don't agree with it, and it's flakey because it only applies in situations you can't even prove exist.

generalebriety

I'm not saying people will sit down and intentionally memorise them. I'm saying that seeing a full solution will mean that the next time you try to do that question you'll immediately know exactly how the entire method is gonna go and not have a clue what thought process went into that. And if the question varies slightly and you try and do it by the same method and you don't get the answer out, you won't have a clue where to go because this maths that you're reproducing isn't your own, it's a memory of what someone else did.

Lol you have said the same thing just in different words. To be able to reproduce an entire method, you have to have memorised it in some manner, right? Again it's another convoluted concept based on a situation that just doesn't exist, not unless you can prove that aswell.

generalebriety

A much more obvious example (and also FP2, on my syllabus at least) is conics. You need to have the ability to think your way round a problem when you're given a shape and told "prove that a^2 + b^2 = 2pqat-2512stap5^2sgsd + 32sdradfs" as conics questions on A-level papers often do. And seeing a solution to one of those will not help you with any single other question because they're all so different and seemingly obscure. You need hints and poking and prodding in the right direction to be able to develop the mathematical dexterity to look at a huge equation that spans the page and see where it comes from, and the courage to keep working at it till it comes out. You don't get that from reading solutions.

I can't see what that proves really: in the context of talking about the solution to a problem involving the simple application of demoivre's theorem, that doesn't really apply. I think if you're trying to argue the point that encouragement to find your own solutions in every case is essential, then it cannot be justified as a lot of it comes down to personal preference and opinions.

generalebriety

Back to something else you said...

That's why helpers are discouraged from giving full solutions. If people don't expect them from us, they won't ask. Personally I believe that no matter how much people want to sabotage their own education, we shouldn't help them do so.

I believe if people want to sabotage their education, they won't come asking for help. If someone really is going to just read examples and think they know it all as you suggest, giving them the solutions is probably their best chance if you think about it. But like I said, I am not convinced such people try to learn a solution and apply it to others with absolutely no understanding of it, especially not people who are allowed to study further maths.

First of all I think you should really consider what you're trying to argue. I am trying to argue that full solutions and hints are both very valid methods of learning, but in this specific case I believed that a full solution would be more beneficial since it's revision, and I am not going to try and argue that it is better in every case, because it certainly isn't. If you had just said "people ask for solutions on here all the time, which is why we don't allow it by default regardless of the individual situations" I would be happy, but arguing that full solutions are not beneficial at all cannot be justified.

People benefit from worked solutions - Proof:

Assume no one benefits from full solutions
moondemon and 3 of his friends benefit from full solutions
Contradiction!
Therefore people must benefit from full solutions :smile:

Reply 15

moondemon

lol what was that you said about not being condescending? I understand exactly what you're saying I just don't agree with it, and it's flakey because it only applies in situations you can't even prove exist. [...] Again it's another convoluted concept based on a situation that just doesn't exist, not unless you can prove that aswell.
Situations don't exist unless I can prove they do? Wow. Anyway, as I said, you've made about 3 posts here and I've made about 3 million. I've seen it happen, I've seen the same questions come up day after day after day, and if you stick around you will too.

moondemon

Lol you have said the same thing just in different words. To be able to reproduce an entire method, you have to have memorised it in some manner, right?
Yes. Doesn't mean it's not accidental. If I see a method, look through it and understand it, I accidentally commit it to memory. That's how the human brain works. It remembers stuff. (Oh, by the way: this is evidence that you haven't understood what I'm saying. I wasn't being condescending, but I certainly am now.)

moondemon

I can't see what that proves really: in the context of talking about the solution to a problem involving the simple application of demoivre's theorem, that doesn't really apply. I think if you're trying to argue the point that encouragement to find your own solutions in every case is essential, then it cannot be justified as a lot of it comes down to personal preference and opinions.
You think? How ironic. Anyway, I've told you exactly why it doesn't come down to personal preference and opinions and you're still here nagging me telling me how stuff I haven't said is completely wrong.

moondemon

I believe if people want to sabotage their education, they won't come asking for help.
Now, I didn't say they did want to. But they are doing.

moondemon

If someone really is going to just read examples and think they know it all as you suggest, giving them the solutions is probably their best chance if you think about it. But like I said, I am not convinced such people try to learn a solution and apply it to others with absolutely no understanding of it, especially not people who are allowed to study further maths.
Head... wall. I never said they tried. Jesus. Allow me to quote myself.

I'm not saying people will sit down and intentionally memorise them. I'm saying that seeing a full solution will mean that the next time you try to do that question you'll immediately know exactly how the entire method is gonna go and not have a clue what thought process went into that.

moondemon

First of all I think you should really consider what you're trying to argue. I am trying to argue that full solutions and hints are both very valid methods of learning, but in this specific case I believed that a full solution would be more beneficial since it's revision, and I am not going to try and argue that it is better in every case, because it certainly isn't. If you had just said "people ask for solutions on here all the time, which is why we don't allow it by default regardless of the individual situations" I would be happy, but arguing that full solutions are not beneficial at all cannot be justified.
Which is not what I'm doing...

I'm fully aware of the need for pragmatism, but I'm not trying to convey what a lovely subject maths is, I'm just making sure I don't give the impression that all maths can be done by studying enough solutions and not doing any questions yourself.

Now, I don't doubt it'd be the quickest way. And if it was a small mistake at the end like missing a minus sign or something then it would've been the best and most effective way. But if it was a pretty major mistake, or a mistake near the beginning, then within ten seconds the OP has already seen your entire solution and is no longer in a position to reproduce it himself other than from immediate short-term memory

You're more than welcome to post a full solution if it's obvious that the OP has tried and you've pushed them a bit further on and they've still tried and failed. Full solutions are a last resort, for the reasons I've given above.

Now, if you'd like to argue with me, please argue with what I'm saying, not what you're inferring. I admit I said the words "full solutions help no one", but I thought I went on to make it perfectly clear that was hyperbole.

Reply 16

gyrase

3

Generalebriety, you're not being too friendly to the new comer. Just accept you don't have to prove yourself right here. Both of you are right in your own places. Some benefit from full solutions and some don't. I would tend towards full solutions at this particular moment in time, simply because exams are at the doorstep and people are stressed. They post a question on here with little wish to discuss it and more so with very low confidence of the question helping with their entire exam since they've probably left revision to late. In this situation it will be a bit daft to provide just hints to the answer where it is likely that the person will give up on the question all together.

Reply 17

Decota

Generalebriety, you're not being too friendly to the new comer. Just accept you don't have to prove yourself right here. Both of you are right in your own places. Some benefit from full solutions and some don't. I would tend towards full solutions at this particular moment in time, simply because exams are at the doorstep and people are stressed. They post a question on here with little wish to discuss it and more so with very low confidence of the question helping with their entire exam since they've probably left revision to late. In this situation it will be a bit daft to provide just hints to the answer where it is likely that the person will give up on the question all together.

Granted, I'm not being friendly. But he's being stupid. He's taking what I say, putting it all in a big blender, and ripping apart the mush. He's not discussing anything I say at all, he's arguing with me over what he's inferred (which incidentally is all stupid anyway, which is why he thinks he's so profoundly right), and that annoys me. I don't wish to prove myself right, I wish to discuss this sensibly and come to a conclusion, rather than have this ridiculous "we should discourage full solutions" / "no we should not ban full solutions!" argument. I gave three or four examples in my previous post of **** that he's just made up by extrapolating wildly from what I actually said. :s-smilie:

If this isn't cause to be unfriendly, I dunno what is.

Reply 18

generalebriety

Granted, I'm not being friendly. But he's being stupid.

Well that sure is a mature thing to say isn't it.

generalebriety

He's taking what I say, putting it all in a big blender, and ripping apart the mush. He's not discussing anything I say at all, he's arguing with me over what he's inferred (which incidentally is all stupid anyway, which is why he thinks he's so profoundly right), and that annoys me.

I am only discussing the relevent points, you could give a thousand examples of where full solutions should not be given, but it doesn't make a lot of difference. Perhaps you can see why. I don't know what you think I think I am right about, my main efforts have just been to convince you that my posting of a full solution was reasonable, and should now always be frowned upon.

generalebriety

I don't wish to prove myself right, I wish to discuss this sensibly and come to a conclusion, rather than have this ridiculous "we should discourage full solutions" / "no we should not ban full solutions!" argument. I gave three or four examples in my previous post of **** that he's just made up by extrapolating wildly from what I actually said. :s-smilie:

Do you suggest I am arguing full solutions shouldn't be banned? I am just surprised that someone mentioned it's not a very good thing here right after posting, not even considering the situation. There is a general notion on this forum that posting full solutions is frowned upon, but why in a situation where it's the best option is it frowned upon so much? There is no justification for it, and you telling me all the good points for encouraging self-discovery of a solution just doesn't address that issue. Which explains completely why I am "extrapolating wildly", because you are just missing the point.

generalebriety

If this isn't cause to be unfriendly, I dunno what is.

I thought you wanted to discuss this sensibly, being unfriendly is like a last resort for someone who hasn't much else to say.

Reply 19