Discussion: Posting full solutions

datr

From the fact that this discussion exists its obvious there are going to be some situations where a full solution is better and where hints are better. Rather than just banning full solutions except when explicitly asked for or ok'ed by the mods I think the fact that I'm helping people for free should afford me the discretion to choose how I help them.

Noone has said anything about banning full solutions, and that'd be contraproductive imo.

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(datr, the following are my general comments and have nothing to do with what I just quoted!)

I think that generally hints are what to start out with, but really most of it is common sense - often you know/see if the OP knows what is being talked about, and then a full solution doesn't harm much. Similarily, giving a fully worked example can be very helpful when learning something new (although often these can be found in textbooks, but sometimes the book you have at hand doesn't explain it in a good way etc.).

I really recommend everyone to read through David's post. It contains a good summary of this question :smile:

Reply 42

datr

12

Speleo

datr: Just because you are providing a service for free doesn't mean it is acceptable to provide a low quality service (full answer) when it may in fact detract from others' high quality services (guiding through the question).

EDIT: I'm not criticising your contribution to the forum which is very good datr, I'm just saying that your argument doesn't hold much water.

Maybe I'm just not being explicit enough. Of course it is very bad form to post a full solution after other people have posted hints (although even then I would argue it could be permissible if the OP has asked for a full solution or is clearly unable to complete the question with the hints provided and doesn't seem to be getting any more help). But when that's not the case is poor service worse than no service at all? (Specifically I'm thinking of the probability questions here which seem to go unanswered for quite a while).

Secondly, I don't agree that it's a poor service. As I mentioned before in many situations a full solution is more helpful than hints. Thus I think the decision whether to post a full solution should be left to the discretion of the user.

Please understand that I'm not advocating full solutions or hints, I only think that it should not be made a rule to only provide hints or to bash users who post full solutions (with the possible exception of those who ignore the attempt of other users to help the OP through hints).

Reply 43

datr

12

nota bene

Noone has said anything about banning full solutions, and that'd be contraproductive imo.

In that case I apologize for arguing the point. I just thought that was where this thread was heading. If nothing is to come of this thread though it seems pointless to sticky it.

Reply 44

Speleo

7

datr, no-one is going to jump on you if you post a full solution when you think it is actually necessary :smile:

I think the thread is more about providing full solutions when hints would be far more useful.

Reply 45

moondemon

Hmm the solution I posted was already suggested. It was then obvious that the method being suggested was not the required method, so clearly it had its benefits.

Reply 46

I can understand that posting a full solution can spoil the posts of those giving hints.

One problem here is that to work out and type a full solution takes time , while this is being done, some people post hints. So it appears that a full solution was posted after hints, when in fact, the hints have jumped the queue so to speak.

Reply 47

Speleo

7

You could refresh before posting.

Reply 48

datr

Secondly, I don't agree that it's a poor service. As I mentioned before in many situations a full solution is more helpful than hints. Thus I think the decision whether to post a full solution should be left to the discretion of the user.

This is my opinion as well, but a certain amount of common sense has to be used; that is - not consistently only giving full solutions, and jumping in with a full solution when other hints are provided (and not responded to by OP).

datr

Please understand that I'm not advocating full solutions or hints, I only think that it should not be made a rule to only provide hints or to bash users who post full solutions (with the possible exception of those who ignore the attempt of other users to help the OP through hints).

Nothing such is being done; it is just pointed out that often it is more helpful to provide hints. Noone shall get jumped on for posting the odd full solutions to and from. I agree that moondemon has been getting a bit much of criticism here, but it is mainly because he has not responded well to the arguments put forward.

edit: Just about to post when I saw your next reply :smile:

datr

In that case I apologize for arguing the point. I just thought that was where this thread was heading. If nothing is to come of this thread though it seems pointless to sticky it.

No need to apologize, it has not been made very clear what the purpose of the thread is. It was another thread that went offtopic discussing this subject, and lately this discussion has been coming back every other week or so... We thought (maybe wrongly) that it could be stickied so that more members took part in the discussion and get more views on this :smile:

edit2:

moondemon

Hmm the solution I posted was already suggested. It was then obvious that the method being suggested was not the required method, so clearly it had its benefits.

Yes, the method was suggested and hinted - and there had been no response from the OP yet. This means he/she might have solved it already, or not understood anything at all. If having solved it your full solution is pointless, and if OP has never seen the method your solution may be quite helpful, but at the time you posted you didn't know anything about the OP's thoughts. I think this is what made someone react (and that you are a newbie, so people would like to make you look at the general policy that hints are preferred).
I was a bit chuffed myself when the OP said this method wasn't the expected one :s-smilie:

It is a standard approach to the type of question.

Reply 49

generalebriety

16

steve2005

I can understand that posting a full solution can spoil the posts of those giving hints.

One problem here is that to work out and type a full solution takes time , while this is being done, some people post hints. So it appears that a full solution was posted after hints, when in fact, the hints have jumped the queue so to speak.

Whereas (as DFranklin said) it can often take much longer to formulate hints. Anyway, I'm fairly sure you personally quite frequently post full solutions maybe an hour or two after hints have been given, regardless of whether the OP has replied or not.

DFranklin's post summed my point of view up much better than my posts did, as far as I'm concerned. :smile:

Reply 50

Speleo

You could refresh before posting.

I should say so. I don't have broadband and IF I have worked out a solution the last thing I want to do is to trash it.

Often I come across a question that has not been answered, but my the time I have worked on it and posted , others have beaten me. There is often a race to respond first. If I wait and refresh I will always lose the race.

Reply 51

steve2005

I should say so. I don't have broadband and IF I have worked out a solution the last thing I want to do is to trash it.

Often I come across a question that has not been answered, but my the time I have worked on it and posted , others have beaten me. There is often a race to respond first. If I wait and refresh I will always lose the race.

I thought our main objective was to help the OP and not who wins a race:wtf?:

Reply 52

generalebriety

Whereas (as DFranklin said) it can often take much longer to formulate hints. Anyway, I'm fairly sure you personally quite frequently post full solutions maybe an hour or two after hints have been given, regardless of whether the OP has replied or not.

DFranklin's post summed my point of view up much better than my posts did, as far as I'm concerned. :smile:

If the hints have done the job then posting a full solution hours after should do no harm to the learning process.

Generalebriety, I have refrained from mentioning it, but I often feel that you make a post simply to reach ten thousand posts more quickly.

Reply 53

moondemon

It's fairly easy to be one-sided in this discussion if you try to treat it in an overly simplistic manner. My main inspiration for investing my time in this discussion is that a situation existed where a full solution did seem much better than hinting, for reasons I don't need to repeat, yet there seemed to be a general notion I had done something wrong. I am under the impression the notion comes from the apparently large number of people who post questions and hope to get an answer they aren't going to benefit from. I don't think people who do benefit from such solutions should be made to work any harder during a stressful time just because some other people can't be bothered to do their homework.

Common sense in these situations is a very good asset.

Reply 54

steve2005

If the hints have done the job then posting a full solution hours after should do no harm to the learning process.

...unless the OP has not yet responded, in which case it does exactly that.

On the other hand, if the OP has solved it - then posting a solution hours after is quite pointless, but yes - it is not going to do any harm.

Reply 55

gyrase

3

This is all a matter of opinion and preference and knowing the type of rigor mathematicians get into trying prove that theres a right answer and this is being discussed in a maths forum, it is obvious we can't all agree mutually.

I'd like to say, I prefer full solutions. TSR is now a large enough stock of data that any particular question 'prove that x = y...', 'show that x=y...' can be found a solution to, simply by going to google, typing some keywords of the question and typing studentroom after. I've done it countless times and pasted an age old threads user's solution to the latest thread to help the person. It has gained me reputation. To put it simply, we are building a (TSR) library now, that when a person asks a question, we can search for it on TSR, sure to find it being posted originally and refer the person to the thread of interest. Also theres probably many people who've searched on TSR and got there question answered by looking at age old threads because theres answers there and not just hints which would (maybe) frustrate the person.

Reply 56

DFranklin

18

datr

Maybe I'm just not being explicit enough. Is poor service worse than no service at all? (Specifically I'm thinking of the probability questions here which seem to go unanswered for quite a while).My take on this is pretty much exactly as you've put it. If a question isn't getting any responses, anything is better than nothing. A few times, when I knew I couldn't give a good answer (because I didn't remember enough about the topic!), I've specifically waited a day to see if anyone else would jump in, before giving my own half-baked solution.

Secondly, I don't agree that it's a poor service. As I mentioned before in many situations a full solution is more helpful than hints. Thus I think the decision whether to post a full solution should be left to the discretion of the user.

As others have said, I don't think anyone is arguing for anything else. Of course, the decision whether to give you (or anyone else) a hard time for posting a full solution is also going to be left to the discretion of the user.

Three suggested "guidelines":

1.

If someone is already helping the original poster, then jumping in with a full solution is bad form.

2.

If you post a full solution and someone thinks you shouldn't have, then there's a good chance they're right, and maybe you should delete the post. After all, you can always post a full solution later if needed.

3.

If you really think a full solution is the best way forward and someone disagrees with you, simply say something like "Sorry, but I think a full solution is the best way of helping the original poster here."

None of these guidelines are remotely directed at datr; I don't recall a single post from him that I have felt inappropriate.

Reply 57