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So gay people are now being targeted by Islamic extremists in their own countries?

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The BBC has stated:

There are "suggestions" the gunman had "leanings towards" radical Islamist ideology, the FBI says

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-36510172

Homophobia within the Muslim community is something that needs to be challenged.

The fact is that there is room for acceptance of homosexuality within Islam. There is no verse within the Quran which explicitly condemns homosexuality. I think in light of this event (which sources appear to point towards Islamic extremism), more needs to be done within the Muslim community to tackle the issue of homophobia and serious discussions need to take place over Islamic interpretations in regards to sexuality.
Original post by The Epicurean

The fact is that there is room for acceptance of homosexuality within Islam. There is no verse within the Quran which explicitly condemns homosexuality.


Really? Today is the day you are going to tell us this?

I say nonsense. The sin of the Lottites is well known and it's very clear what is being prohibited when that biblical allusion is made. We know what they're referring to because they were operating in the same cultural context where the story of Sodom and Gamorrah was used by Jewish people and Christians in the 7th century to refer to same-sex conduct.

ISIS are acting "Islamically" in their homophobic killings and they are all the more popular for it across the Middle East
Reply 3
There is absolutely no confirmation that the attacker was Muslim as of yet. It is definitely possible but let's wait another few hours until the identity is released.
Original post by Thutmose-III
Really? Today is the day you are going to tell us this?

I say nonsense. The sin of the Lottites is well known and it's very clear what is being prohibited when that biblical allusion is made. We know what they're referring to because they were operating in the same cultural context where the story of Sodom and Gamorrah was used by Jewish people and Christians in the 7th century to refer to same-sex conduct.

ISIS are acting "Islamically" in their homophobic killings and they are all the more popular for it across the Middle East


The Sodom and Gomorrah story is about homosexual rape though, not to mention later on in the Bible in Ezekiel God says through the prophet that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was their pride and lack of concern for the poor. Nothing to do with homosexuality as we understand it today
Original post by Thutmose-III
Really? Today is the day you are going to tell us this?


Nope. I already have two threads on this topic, plus many more posts. I have been challenging the interpretation for some time (and receiving much hate from certain Islamists on TSR because of my views)

I say nonsense. The sin of the Lottites is well known and it's very clear what is being prohibited when that biblical allusion is made. We know what they're referring to because they were operating in the same cultural context where the story of Sodom and Gamorrah was used by Jewish people and Christians in the 7th century to refer to same-sex conduct.

ISIS are acting "Islamically" in their homophobic killings and they are all the more popular for it across the Middle East


The way forward is to challenge this interpretation, rather than justify it.

No, what you are referring to is the israiliyyat, which is Christian and Jewish narratives, which are not used to establish facts within Islam. The story about Lut in the Quran is rather vague and no explicit mention is made towards homosexuality. The Hadith literature is more explicit, but the narrators of the hadith in question are of questionable authority.

Anyway, here is a recent post of mine challenging the Hadith:
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4052083&page=8&p=64506911#post64506911

And here is a post of mine challenging the common interpretation of the Quran in regards to homosexuality:
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4052083&page=8&p=64507571#post64507571
(edited 7 years ago)
It doesn't matter what it was about, it matters what it was used to justify. Christians and Jews took that story to justify the prohibition of all homosexual conduct, whether consensual or not. The Muslims spoke of the story of the Lottites in that context. And the view that it prohibits all such conduct is the very clear, mainstream and continuous interpretation since the 7th century
Original post by The Epicurean

No, what you are referring to is the israiliyyat, which is Christian and Jewish narratives, which are not used to establish facts within Islam.

What a bizarre and circular form of reasoning. The story of Lot is based on Jewish biblical history. There wasn't a second Lot, a second Sodom and Gamorrah. It's the same one. When Mohammed was around talking about the Lottites was shorthand for same-sex conduct of any type

I understand you probably have this desperate emotional need to square your sexuality with your religion, you don't want to feel unusual or like you'e been pushed out. But it comes across like a black man wanting to be a member of the KKK.
Original post by The Epicurean
The BBC has stated:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-36510172

Homophobia within the Muslim community is something that needs to be challenged.

The fact is that there is room for acceptance of homosexuality within Islam. There is no verse within the Quran which explicitly condemns homosexuality. I think in light of this event (which sources appear to point towards Islamic extremism), more needs to be done within the Muslim community to tackle the issue of homophobia and serious discussions need to take place over Islamic interpretations in regards to sexuality.


The verses haven't been interpreted in a mainstream way to accommodate homosexuality in hundreds of years. Do you think this will happen any time soon given the current climate?
Reply 9
What do you mean "now"?
If the gunman hasn't been identified as Muslim, do not portray him as one. Mass shootings in America are carried out more by white people than actual muslims - quite the surprise.
Original post by Thutmose-III
What a bizarre and circular form of reasoning. The story of Lot is based on Jewish biblical history. There wasn't a second Lot, a second Sodom and Gamorrah. It's the same one. When Mohammed was around talking about the Lottites was shorthand for same-sex conduct of any type


You should read up on the Isra'iliyyat. I will quote from wikipedia for you:

Muslim scholars generally classify the narratives of the Isra'iliyyat (Jewish and Christian sources) into three categories:

Those considered to be true because the revelation to Muhammad confirms them.
Those considered to be false because the revelation to Muhammad rejects them.
Those not known to be either true or false


The Christian and Jewish scriptures are only considered true if they agree with the Islamic scripture. This is the actual position taken by Islamic scholars. You are trying to do the reverse and say that because Christian and Jewish sources say "xyz" and thus "xyz" is true in Islam. If you have an issue with this logic, you need to challenge the Islamic scholars on this. But this is the view that they take on the matter.

I understand you probably have this desperate emotional need to square your sexuality with your religion, you don't want to feel unusual or like you'e been pushed out. But it comes across like a black man wanting to be a member of the KKK.


I am an ex-Catholic atheist and I am straight. So lets leave the psychoanalysis and talk about the real issue here.
Original post by The Epicurean

You are trying to do the reverse and say that because Christian and Jewish sources say "xyz" and thus "xyz" is true in Islam


I'm saying it's true because the vast majority of Muslim scholars throughout history have said it's true and the vast majority of Muslims practice their religion on the assumption that is what it prohibits. There is no question what the vast majority of mainstream Muslim scholars throughout take reference to the Luti to mean, and to prohibit.

I am an ex-Catholic atheist and I am straight. So lets leave the psychoanalysis and talk about the real issue here.


Which makes it even more bizarre and embarrassing, given you seem desperate to confer on Islam some kind of logical character and claim for it a reasoned basis that doesn't exist. For your comments to make sense there would have to be some kind of underlying objective truth to Islam that we were trying to get at, which is laughable. Islam is what it is practiced as, not what some delusional proponents claim "true Islam" says

And whenever I see you commenting on these boards you're talking about homosexuality and Islam. It seems there is some psychological issue at play there given the obsession
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Grand High Witch
The verses haven't been interpreted in a mainstream way to accommodate homosexuality in hundreds of years. Do you think this will happen any time soon given the current climate?


Interestingly, the issue of homosexuality and Muslim attitudes towards it in the past isn't quite so clear cut as many think. I made a post on this before which I will link before. But to quote just one 17th century Muslim theologian, Mulla Sadr and his interesting stance towards homosexuality. Mulla Sadr stated:

[T]he divine purpose behind the existence of refined pederastic attraction (homosexuality) was precisely to induce men to frequent and care for boys, thereby ensuring that the arts and sciences of civilisation would be transmitted from generation to generation

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4079729&page=5&p=64769695#post64769695

That said, I don't know whether views or attitudes will change, we can only hope so. But that is why I think it is important we offer our support to LGBT Muslims because they are one of the most discriminated groups in the world, but in spite of this, they are actually putting up a strong case and are challenging the homophobia within Islam.
Original post by Oblivion99
If the gunman hasn't been identified as Muslim, do not portray him as one


He has been identified as Muslim.
Original post by Thutmose-III
He has been identified as Muslim.


Source?
I'd just like to point out that this discussion is about the shooting. Not the ethics of homosexuality.

Personally, I'm skeptical that it was a specifically homophobic attack. If the shooter was an Islamic extremist, they could just be attacking the western ideology.
Original post by Thutmose-III
He has been identified as Muslim.


Proof please?
Original post by Thutmose-III
I'm saying it's true because the vast majority of Muslim scholars throughout history have said it's true and the vast majority of Muslims practice their religion on the assumption that is what it prohibits. There is no question what the vast majority of mainstream Muslim scholars throughout take reference to the Luti to mean, and to prohibit.


I don't deny that many Muslims interpret the verses on Lut to be verses condemning homosexuality. Many do take this view. But, I don't think we can state that Muslim scholars have always taken these verses to be injunctions against homosexuality. The concept of homosexuality is a Western term and was only introduced to the Islamic world through colonialism.

Now, what is interesting is that early Islamic poetry is full of homoerotic themes. A great classical example of Islamic poetry would be Abu Nuwas (considered to be one of the greatest classical Arab poets) who wrote many poems with homoerotic themes. Surely the popular arts are a reflection of the attitudes a society holds? The nude statues we see of ancient Greece show that within their society there was a tolerance towards nudity for example. Surely the prevalence of homoerotic themes within Islamic poetry would reflect a society that was more open to homosexuality?


Which makes it even more bizarre and embarrassing, given you seem desperate to confer on Islam some kind of logical character and claim for it a reasoned basis that doesn't exist. For your comments to make sense there would have to be some kind of underlying objective truth to Islam that we were trying to get at, which is laughable. Islam is what it is practiced as, not what all these "No True Muslim" proponents claim "true Islam" says


I have nowhere made the "No True Muslim" or "true Islam" claim. I am challenging an interpretation. People are fully entitled to hold other interpretations, I'm just offering an alternative interpretation.

And whenever I see you commenting on these boards you're talking about homosexuality and Islam. It seems there is some psychological issue at play there given the obsession


First you ask why I only mentioned it now, and now you say you always see me mentioning it.

Anyway, I often get quoted into such thread by other people as I hold a minority view that can create discussion. If you want a good debate, you need people with interesting minority views who challenge the majority or consensus. Also, it is a serious issue, as evidenced by today's event. Do you not agree that today's event highlights that there is a serious issue?
Original post by Thutmose-III
I'm not worried. I grieve for their deaths but this changes nothing. We've clipped 30,000 of those f*ckers in airstrikes, and we'll kill another 1000 over the next week as government officials order retaliation for this crime.

I'm incredibly sad the West has suffered another attack, and as a gay guy of course makes me angry. But it doesn't change the basic calculus; we're going to keep steamrolling over these losers until they've lost all of their territory, then we'll hand them over to the Iraqis to be tortured and killed. No terrorist attack can stop that now.


So you support wars in the middle east that will and have killed many innocents, cause a never ending wellspring of terrorists, which are futile and unwinnable long term? And would I right in thinking that you see Trump or Farage or anyone who wants to secure our borders as a bigot or fascist?
Forgive me if I presume, but most people nowadays seem to have the same politics.

If you wanted gay people to be safer, you would not advocate wars and open borders and immigration, all of which worsen the problem.
(edited 7 years ago)

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