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Home Affairs - New legislation (proposed) "Incitement To Religious Hatred" watch

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    it depends how you rank freedom of speech, theres freedom, and then theres hatrid. The hatrid must be abolished, and then we don't have to worry about what people say.
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    (Original post by Pip210)
    it depends how you rank freedom of speech, theres freedom, and then theres hatrid. The hatrid must be abolished, and then we don't have to worry about what people say.
    And this law will do nothing to prevent hatred. If people are not allowed to put forward their own opinions, no matter how crude and provocative, then we lack freedom of speech. We were denied this freedom by religious bodies for most of our history and now we run the risk of it being denied by well meaning but daft liberals vainly attempting to prevent bigoty and hatred.
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    (Original post by an Siarach)
    If my condemning a belief was taken badly by someone of that belief i would be liable under this proposed law. This is the kind of nonsense people had to live under decades/centuries ago i dont see why were trying to bring it back now.
    That's not what I'm worried about. Political correctness is important so in that respect I support this legislation. Laws aren't rigid, and I doubt the judicial system will be inflexible to the point that it will prosecute anyone who has makes a condemning comment about a religion, active "incitement" is different. However I do think that there are some religions that should be exempt from this law- although this presents a new problem of what people regard as a "moral" religion.
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    (Original post by an Siarach)
    If my condemning a belief was taken badly by someone of that belief i would be liable under this proposed law. This is the kind of nonsense people had to live under decades/centuries ago i dont see why were trying to bring it back now.
    As is my understanding of the proposed bill, you are mistaken. It is not someone of that belief that must be offeneded; more that if i am deemed to be trying to encourage violence and hate towards another religion without any cause. If i merely criticise it, i cannot be inciting hatrid towards it, however, if i get up on my soapbox outside Finsbury Park Mosque and start burning flags and smashing crucifixes, or similarly breaking cresent moons outside Westminster Abbey, then I can be accused of hating the religion and inciting others to do the same.

    What people must realise is the difference between criticising and hating a religion or belief set, and inviting others to do the same.
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    (Original post by Elle)
    However I do think that there are some religions that should be exempt from this law- although this presents a new problem of what people regard as a "moral" religion.
    Why should some religions be exempt. To exempt some religions under law would be discriminatory.
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    (Original post by tkfmbp)
    As is my understanding of the proposed bill, you are mistaken. It is not someone of that belief that must be offeneded; more that if i am deemed to be trying to encourage violence and hate towards another religion without any cause. If i merely criticise it, i cannot be inciting hatrid towards it, however, if i get up on my soapbox outside Finsbury Park Mosque and start burning flags and smashing crucifixes, or similarly breaking cresent moons outside Westminster Abbey, then I can be accused of hating the religion and inciting others to do the same.

    What people must realise is the difference between criticising and hating a religion or belief set, and inviting others to do the same.
    As you say, however if i were to condemn a religion or practice under this law that could be interpreted as attempting to encourage violence and hate against that belief - this is the problem with it.
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    thats quite a pessimistic view, and I'm not nieve enough to say that hatrid will be completely wiped out by this, there will always be that part of human nature, but this is a way of minimizing it, and preventing it, and I don't see any other solutions to the problem.

    I do think that people should be allowed freedom of speech, but then again, there are boundries. We are allowed freedom to protest, and debate, and express valid points of view, like on this debating forum, but when people are inciting hatrid, that is crossing the line, just like how we are given the freedom to play physical sports for instance, like rugby, but that is moderated, and played fairly with a referee. The governemt is the referee of society, the law their arm of justice. When we do something wrong, like a hate crime, or like a bad tackle in rugby, we are punished, and if it is a really bad tackle, deliberatly fouled, then the ref punishes that player for two reasons: to ensure that he will never do it again; and as an example to other players not to do that.
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    (Original post by an Siarach)
    And this law will do nothing to prevent hatred. If people are not allowed to put forward their own opinions, no matter how crude and provocative, then we lack freedom of speech. We were denied this freedom by religious bodies for most of our history and now we run the risk of it being denied by well meaning but daft liberals vainly attempting to prevent bigoty and hatred.
    sorry, my last post was in reply to that.
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    (Original post by tkfmbp)
    Why should some religions be exempt. To exempt some religions under law would be discriminatory.
    I agree this would be discriminatory, and this is were the problem lies and ultimatley where I believe the legislation fails. For instance, The numerous cult religions that exist are dangerous to those vulnerable to influence, often they use methods that are immoral to gain support. If it weren't for people publicly criticising and raising awareness of such organisations many more people would be in danger of being drawn in by them.
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    (Original post by Pip210)
    thats quite a pessimistic view, and I'm not nieve enough to say that hatrid will be completely wiped out by this, there will always be that part of human nature, but this is a way of minimizing it, and preventing it, and I don't see any other solutions to the problem.

    I do think that people should be allowed freedom of speech, but then again, there are boundries. We are allowed freedom to protest, and debate, and express valid points of view, like on this debating forum, but when people are inciting hatrid, that is crossing the line, just like how we are given the freedom to play physical sports for instance, like rugby, but that is moderated, and played fairly with a referee. The governemt is the referee of society, the law their arm of justice. When we do something wrong, like a hate crime, or like a bad tackle in rugby, we are punished, and if it is a really bad tackle, deliberatly fouled, then the ref punishes that player for two reasons: to ensure that he will never do it again; and as an example to other players not to do that.
    Essentially what you say is disband with freedom of speech, wel ask the majority what is acceptable. Again need i point out we languished under this kind of society for most of our history i dont see why we need to take a backward step for the cultural hangover that is religion.
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    (Original post by Elle)
    I agree this would be discriminatory, and this is were the problem lies and ultimatley where I believe the legislation fails. For instance, The numerous cult religions that exist are dangerous to those vulnerable to influence, often they use methods that are immoral to gain support. If it weren't for people publicly criticising and raising awareness of such organisations many more people would be in danger of being drawn in by them.

    Critiscing such a cult organisiation is fine. Burning their emblems and flags in the middle of a street is not fine. There's a distinction.
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    For an interesting, albeit rather extreme, Islamic viewpoint on the subject, check http://www.icb.org.uk/articles/religious_hatred.htm (Islamic Council of Britain)
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    (Original post by giordano)
    For an interesting, albeit rather extreme, Islamic viewpoint on the subject, check http://www.icb.org.uk/articles/religious_hatred.htm (Islamic Council of Britain)
    i don't think, or at least i hope!, that most muslims in this country don't think like that anymore. Perhaps an extreme reaction ? Thanks for the link though, very interesting.
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    (Original post by tkfmbp)
    i don't think, or at least i hope!, that most muslims in this country don't think like that anymore. Perhaps an extreme reaction ? Thanks for the link though, very interesting.
    Unfortunately, you can find litterally hundreds of pages like that on the web.
    There has been a considerable radicalization in Islamic movements over the last 15 years, and now of course Iraq is a godsend for all sorts of extremists

    (Try also http://www.muhajiroun.com/ this is perhaps the most well-known of UK fundamentalist websites, and it advocates quite openly religious hatred)
 
 
 
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