This referendum is our last chance to ensure that future generations en

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newpersonage
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This referendum is our last chance to ensure that future generations enjoy self government

I recently came across this website that explains why we had the renegotiations and why we are having an EU Referendum: http://www.discovertheeu.co.uk/

It also explains why the reason for having a referendum is being suppressed.

It seems to me that in 9 years time, when the Eurogroup forms a political union and controls the EU, the UK political parties will use the current referendum as evidence that the UK must join the full union. If we join the full union any future referendum on membership will need approval by the EU Parliament. This is unlikely so this referendum is the last chance to save a self governing UK for future generations.

Whatever you do, don't vote Remain now if you think you would have wanted to vote Leave in 9 years time!

If the EU swings far right or far left in 20 years time there will be no escape if we Remain. We will have thrown away our civilised, tolerant, country and will only have ourselves to blame.
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Doones
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(Original post by newpersonage)
If the EU swings far right or far left in 20 years time there will be no escape if we Remain. We will have thrown away our civilised, tolerant, country and will only have ourselves to blame.
If the EU really swings far left or far right the UK will have big problems if it is in OR out of the EU.

At least if you are IN you can try to prevent that happening.

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newpersonage
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(Original post by jneill)
If the EU really swings far left or far right the UK will have big problems if it is in OR out of the EU.

At least if you are IN you can try to prevent that happening.

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With about 10% of the vote in the EU Council and Parliament the UK will be totally marginalised after the Eurozone forms a political union!

At 10% of the vote the UK will have almost no chance of affecting EU policy - and, of course 30% of UK might be supporting EU policies so its only 7% of vote.
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ckfeister
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(Original post by newpersonage)
With about 10% of the vote in the EU Council and Parliament the UK will be totally marginalised after the Eurozone forms a political union!

At 10% of the vote the UK will have almost no chance of affecting EU policy - and, of course 30% of UK might be supporting EU policies so its only 7% of vote.
Conservative government, socialist EU... balanced power... the end.
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Doones
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(Original post by newpersonage)
With about 10% of the vote in the EU Council and Parliament the UK will be totally marginalised after the Eurozone forms a political union!

At 10% of the vote the UK will have almost no chance of affecting EU policy - and, of course 30% of UK might be supporting EU policies so its only 7% of vote.
10% is better than 0%. And we have a Veto.

Anyway you carry on spreading FUD. Unfortunately it seems to be working...

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Naveed-7
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(Original post by jneill)
If the EU really swings far left or far right the UK will have big problems if it is in OR out of the EU.

At least if you are IN you can try to prevent that happening.

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If we stay IN, we cannot prevent what happens. We cannot prevent the laws, the immigration, the large monthly EU charges, the debt, additional rules and we cannot leave the EU for a very long time.
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Doones
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(Original post by Naveed-7)
If we stay IN, we cannot prevent what happens. We cannot prevent the laws, the immigration, the large monthly EU charges, the debt, additional rules and we cannot leave the EU for a very long time.
Which law affects you personally?

Naveed, are you Anglo-Saxon?

Re Charges, Norway pays pretty much the same per capita as the UK just for access to the EU market. It has no say over the "rules". At all. Is that the deal you want?

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ODES_PDES
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The UK needs a period of standing on its own feet, something which we have not experienced in recent times
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newpersonage
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(Original post by ckfeister)
Conservative government, socialist EU... balanced power... the end.
Today its a Socialist EU and a Tory govt in UK. Tomorrow it might be A Right wing EU and a Tory govt.

But after 2025 and EUrozone political union, the real future is a Right or Left wing EU with a UK regional Parliament that has very little power.
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newpersonage
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(Original post by jneill)
10% is better than 0%. And we have a Veto.

Anyway you carry on spreading FUD. Unfortunately it seems to be working...

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What vetoes ! ? Where have you been for the past 7 years? The EU Treaties as amended by Lisbon phased out all except a handful of vetoes by 2014. Art 16, Treaty on European Union:

"3. The Council shall act by a qualified majority except where the Treaties provide otherwise.

4. As from 1 November 2014, a qualified majority shall be defined as at least 55% of the members of the Council, comprising at least fifteen of them and representing Member States comprising at least 65% of the population of the Union."

The Eurozone will have near total power once it forms a political union. If you vote Remain the UK regional Parliament will have almost no say over important issues that directly affect the UK. If you vote Leave the UK National Government will have 100% control over issues that affect the UK.

If you think I am spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt, you are wrong. 90% of those who vote Remain will be voting for the EEC and have no idea that the Referendum is actually about membership of the European UNION, an altogether different beast.
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Elivercury
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(Original post by newpersonage)
We will have thrown away our civilised, tolerant, country and will only have ourselves to blame.
I'm guessing you don't go outside much?

In many respects we are an incredibly ignorant and xenophobic country, as the referendum is displaying quite clearly. Sure, you can point to worse countries, but there are also much better ones, many of them being in the EU.
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newpersonage
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(Original post by Elivercury)
I'm guessing you don't go outside much?

In many respects we are an incredibly ignorant and xenophobic country, as the referendum is displaying quite clearly. Sure, you can point to worse countries, but there are also much better ones, many of them being in the EU.
I am a travel fanatic. It is the dreadful racism of the Remain lobby who want to homogenise Europe that appalls me. One Law, One Economy, One Culture and One Government for all of Europe is the nightmare scenario that Stalin and Bonaparte dreamt of. All difference erased so that those who rule the EU can feel safe in their beds at night.

The real Xenophobia is to be pro-EU and not to look out at this glorious and diverse world.
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Elivercury
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(Original post by newpersonage)
I am a travel fanatic. It is the dreadful racism of the Remain lobby who want to homogenise Europe that appalls me. One Law, One Economy, One Culture and One Government for all of Europe is the nightmare scenario that Stalin and Bonaparte dreamt of. All difference erased so that those who rule the EU can feel safe in their beds at night.

The real Xenophobia is to be pro-EU and not to look out at this glorious and diverse world.
Because obviously it's impossible for countries to retain their own culture and sense of identity as part of a union. Explains all the southern accents I hear in Edinburgh... clearly the Scots are being homogenised.

Incidentally, you do know there are no plans to build a big wall around Europe and keep everyone else out right? You'll still be able to go on holidays in Thailand etc.
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ckfeister
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(Original post by newpersonage)
Today its a Socialist EU and a Tory govt in UK. Tomorrow it might be A Right wing EU and a Tory govt.

But after 2025 and EUrozone political union, the real future is a Right or Left wing EU with a UK regional Parliament that has very little power.
It keeps us in check.
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newpersonage
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(Original post by Elivercury)
Because obviously it's impossible for countries to retain their own culture and sense of identity as part of a union. Explains all the southern accents I hear in Edinburgh... clearly the Scots are being homogenised.

Incidentally, you do know there are no plans to build a big wall around Europe and keep everyone else out right? You'll still be able to go on holidays in Thailand etc.
Even in my own lifetime, from family holidays motoring across Europe onwards I have seen Europe homogenising. The EU IS ITSELF the main agent of globalisation.

The EU has appropriated a tactic from the Communist Empires to try to cut the ground out from under those who object to the homogenization of Europe into a single EU culture by using the term "Unity in Diversity". However, numerous studies of what is actually happening in the EU expose this as a sham, as the American Cris Shore (2013) put it:
Image
In other words, "Unity in Diversity" is part of a premeditated operation to destroy the identities of the Nation States within the EU.

Shore's observation is borne out by numerous other authors. Biscoe (2001), when considering how far the EU nurtures national cultures "..concludes that the EU's efforts in this field are mainly of symbolic importance..". Berger and Huntington (2001) noticed that this even extends into removing national religions "As countries are absorbed into the “European project,” a distinctive “Euro-secularity” seems to be part of the deal — it can be observed most dramatically today in Poland and Ireland. " As Lähdesmäkia (2011) puts it "On all levels of the EU’s cultural policy, the rhetoric of European cultural identity and its ‘unitedness in diversity’ is related with the ideas and practices of fostering common cultural heritage."
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Elivercury
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(Original post by newpersonage)
Even in my own lifetime, from family holidays motoring across Europe onwards I have seen Europe homogenising. The EU IS ITSELF the main agent of globalisation.

The EU has appropriated a tactic from the Communist Empires to try to cut the ground out from under those who object to the homogenization of Europe into a single EU culture by using the term "Unity in Diversity". However, numerous studies of what is actually happening in the EU expose this as a sham, as the American Cris Shore (2013) put it:
Image
In other words, "Unity in Diversity" is part of a premeditated operation to destroy the identities of the Nation States within the EU.

Shore's observation is borne out by numerous other authors. Biscoe (2001), when considering how far the EU nurtures national cultures "..concludes that the EU's efforts in this field are mainly of symbolic importance..". Berger and Huntington (2001) noticed that this even extends into removing national religions "As countries are absorbed into the “European project,” a distinctive “Euro-secularity” seems to be part of the deal — it can be observed most dramatically today in Poland and Ireland. " As Lähdesmäkia (2011) puts it "On all levels of the EU’s cultural policy, the rhetoric of European cultural identity and its ‘unitedness in diversity’ is related with the ideas and practices of fostering common cultural heritage."
Bully for them. It still doesn't change the fact that the UK has been around for 300 years yet there is plenty of distinct cultural heritage available.

Academic ******y is just that and I'm sure you could find dozens of academics who whole a completely polar view - it's hardly an exact science.
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newpersonage
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(Original post by jneill)
Which law affects you personally?

Naveed, are you Anglo-Saxon?

Re Charges, Norway pays pretty much the same per capita as the UK just for access to the EU market. It has no say over the "rules". At all. Is that the deal you want?

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Norway has 250% of the per capita income of the UK which is why, under EEA rules, it pays so much. The UK would pay 40% of Norway's capitation payment.

You are quite right to point out that if we were out of the EU we would have a chance of being as rich as Norway (two and a half times better off!).
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newpersonage
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(Original post by Elivercury)
Bully for them. It still doesn't change the fact that the UK has been around for 300 years yet there is plenty of distinct cultural heritage available.

Academic ******y is just that and I'm sure you could find dozens of academics who whole a completely polar view - it's hardly an exact science.
We were discussing racism: the desire to homogenise an entire continent out of fear of diversity is about as racist as it gets. Please don't deny it, you are probably posting elsewhere that the EU is wonderful because it is erasing the differences between States that might lead to war. We could, of course, respect each other, as we did in the EEC.
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99_Problems
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If we are a part of the EEA we will have to accept 3/4 of the rules anyway and pay almost the same amount of money except with no say whatsoever in the rules.

If you think we can negotiate our own rules like the Swiss then you are naive. They're not going to let us leave and then give us all the goodies we want, we will pay a harsh price. We could form stronger ties with the commonwealth I suppose but Brexit still hasn't given proper answers in regards to this. So all we'll become is a silly little island with no ties to the massive continent right next to us.
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Elivercury
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(Original post by newpersonage)
We were discussing racism: the desire to homogenise an entire continent out of fear of diversity is about as racist as it gets. Please don't deny it, you are probably posting elsewhere that the EU is wonderful because it is erasing the differences between States that might lead to war. We could, of course, respect each other, as we did in the EEC.
Again, forming the UK doesn't seem to have caused racism or bigotry between the involved countries.

Grouping to form a single whole does in no way involve homogenisation, anymore than migrants need to homogenise into the UK.

Fact of the matter is that much the the UK is intolerant and xenophobic, incidentally against countries from outside of the EU.

Incidentally, I never used the word racist. Being xenophobic, ignorant and intolerant is not the same as being a racist, although they are closely linked.
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