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Michael Gove Questilon Time. watch

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    I really like Michael Gove and this was an excellent performance by him. He was aided by a pretty dullish, IN crowd and a more genteel OUT crowd. He handled the accusations of anti immigration well and the wider points if democracy.

    I think as well it's clear that he believes what he's saying and stands leagues above a slimy, opportunistic Boris.

    I think his weakest points were thus:

    He was rightly pulled up on the UKs (and others) Veto of EU expansion (not to mention that Caneron and Boris were very much pro turkey (which was in fairness before it became so authoritarian)

    He showed some double standards. The experts are right when they agree with him- but are untrustworthy if they don't.

    Like most brexiters he doesn't consider that if the EU did withhold trade it would damage the UK more than it would damage the EU- just as the UK would rightly protect its interest of the scots were to leave. Taking a cynical attitude self interested attitude as Gove does would lead to that politicians would be willing to suffer the ire of businesses temporarily than the long term ire of their electorates unhappy that Britain is being pampered.

    He accused the Guardian of twisting his dad's words. They haven't- they've released a transcript.



    Sadly, for us remain voters, (and I still count myself among them...just) I fear Cameron will be unable to match his former friends rhetoric.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    I really like Michael Gove and this was an excellent performance by him. He was aided by a pretty dullish, IN crowd and a more genteel OUT crowd. He handled the accusations of anti immigration well and the wider points if democracy.

    I think as well it's clear that he believes what he's saying and stands leagues above a slimy, opportunistic Boris.

    I think his weakest points were thus:

    He was rightly pulled up on the UKs (and others) Veto of EU expansion (not to mention that Caneron and Boris were very much pro turkey (which was in fairness before it became so authoritarian)

    He showed some double standards. The experts are right when they agree with him- but are untrustworthy if they don't.

    Like most brexiters he doesn't consider that if the EU did withhold trade it would damage the UK more than it would damage the EU- just as the UK would rightly protect its interest of the scots were to leave. Taking a cynical attitude self interested attitude as Gove does would lead to that politicians would be willing to suffer the ire of businesses temporarily than the long term ire of their electorates unhappy that Britain is being pampered.

    He accused the Guardian of twisting his dad's words. They haven't- they've released a transcript.



    Sadly, for us remain voters, (and I still count myself among them...just) I fear Cameron will be unable to match his former friends rhetoric.
    Good news! Hameron got hammered. That speech about Winston Churchill made me chuckle :giggle: He was really getting passionate.
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    (Original post by The Roast)
    Good news! Hameron got hammered. That speech about Winston Churchill made me chuckle :giggle: He was really getting passionate.
    I actually thought Cameron was better
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    I actually thought Cameron was better
    He was dreadful.
    Spoiler:
    Show
    Clearly our opinions are biased. No need to reply.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    I actually thought Cameron was better
    Are you kidding? Audience was literally laughing at him for loads of the time, made the mistake of trying to liken himself to Churchill, a man who famously said -

    "We have our own dream and our own task.

    We are with Europe, but not of it.

    We are linked, but not combined.

    We are interested and associated, but not absorbed.

    If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, we must always choose the open sea."
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    He accused the Guardian of twisting his dad's words. They haven't- they've released a transcript..
    Also, they did twist his words - here's a verification from his dad.

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    (Original post by Davij038)
    I really like Michael Gove and this was an excellent performance by him. He was aided by a pretty dullish, IN crowd and a more genteel OUT crowd. He handled the accusations of anti immigration well and the wider points if democracy.

    I think as well it's clear that he believes what he's saying and stands leagues above a slimy, opportunistic Boris.


    Sadly, for us remain voters, (and I still count myself among them...just) I fear Cameron will be unable to match his former friends rhetoric.
    I agree with you. Michael Gove is an absolute amazing lovely chap. He is always humble and calm, even when he is under pressure in arguments.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    I actually thought Cameron was better
    I agree.

    (Original post by EuanF)
    Are you kidding? Audience was literally laughing at him for loads of the time, made the mistake of trying to liken himself to Churchill, a man who famously said -

    "We have our own dream and our own task.

    We are with Europe, but not of it.

    We are linked, but not combined.

    We are interested and associated, but not absorbed.

    If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, we must always choose the open sea."
    The audience were being unfair in places, really. Like about how Cameron can guarantee those reforms - well, the promises of the EU states is as best he can get. There is nothing guaranteed. It's unfair to try and condemn him for that.

    However, on other parts they were responding aptly. For example, he was going on and on about Churchill forgetting that the circumstances then - WWII - are vastly different from those now.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Are you kidding? Audience was literally laughing at him for loads of the time, made the mistake of trying to liken himself to Churchill, a man who famously said -

    "We have our own dream and our own task.

    We are with Europe, but not of it.

    We are linked, but not combined.

    We are interested and associated, but not absorbed.

    If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, we must always choose the open sea."
    Cameron's option is the Churchillian option:

    Part of the EU but not the Euro, outside Schengen , a Rebate and an opt out of ever closer union.
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    I thought both did very well but probably failed to convince the undecided. Gove had a clear message on control but essentially had to evade the economy questions, Cameron had a clear message about remain being better and the risks but was also very honest, he kind of shirked immigration though (though it's the closest he's come to admitting he does'nt want significantly reduced immigration).

    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    I agree with you. Michael Gove is an absolute amazing lovely chap. He is always humble and calm, even when he is under pressure in arguments.
    Agreed, i think Gove has come out of the referendum very well and i hope we get some polling to see his approval ratings soon. Perhaps he'll be a future Tory leader.
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    I thought Cameron was successful, although he did avoid answering a couple of questions *but what can we expect?*. I thoroughly dislike Gove, although this stems from his time as Education Minister. He also proved himself to be an idiot regarding the thing about his dad. I won't lie though, I didn't watch the whole thing so cannot properly comment.
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    I thought Cameron's performance was fantastic, I usually dislike him and he often struggles in these kind of things (no wonder he ran away from Ed during the GE), but he had a rock solid performance, I don't think he struggled at all, even when they argued about immigration.

    I Gove was quite poor IMO, he flat out didn't answer the question of that physics student woman, not surprising because a Brexit would f**k people like her, and I thought it was pretty dishonest what he was saying, especially the crap about his dad.
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    (Original post by IFoundWonderland)
    I thought Cameron was successful, although he did avoid answering a couple of questions *but what can we expect?*. I thoroughly dislike Gove, although this stems from his time as Education Minister. He also proved himself to be an idiot regarding the thing about his dad. I won't lie though, I didn't watch the whole thing so cannot properly comment.
    (Original post by 16characterlimit)
    I thought Cameron's performance was fantastic, I usually dislike him and he often struggles in these kind of things (no wonder he ran away from Ed during the GE), but he had a rock solid performance, I don't think he struggled at all, even when they argued about immigration.

    I Gove was quite poor IMO, he flat out didn't answer the question of that physics student woman, not surprising because a Brexit would f**k people like her, and I thought it was pretty dishonest what he was saying, especially the crap about his dad.
    He literally never lied about his dad, see the following

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    (Original post by EuanF)
    He literally never lied about his dad, see the following

    I have no idea whag you're showimg me. Is this an article?
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    I thought Cameron was great, especially when he was likened to neville chamberlain his outburst of passion afterwards was amazing - something he should have broughtto the campaign much earlier - very powerful about the Churchill bit as well

    Gove? Wouldn't stop repeating himself, never answered questions.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Are you kidding? Audience was literally laughing at him for loads of the time, made the mistake of trying to liken himself to Churchill, a man who famously said -

    "We have our own dream and our own task.

    We are with Europe, but not of it.

    We are linked, but not combined.

    We are interested and associated, but not absorbed.

    If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, we must always choose the open sea."
    That quote is a lie.

    The first four lines are from an article he wrote in the US in 1930. The article was called "A United States of Europe" - a concept Churchill was a fan of. He went on to say:

    (Original post by Churchill)
    Everywhere, in every age, in every area however wide, our every grouping of peoples however diverse, unity has made for strength and prosperity for all within its circle. Why should Europe fear unity?
    If you read more of the article, you'll see the context in which Churchill was writing. He was talking about Britain's position at the time - a nation with a massive Empire and Commonwealth. He actually started by saying that Britain has it's own plans... i.e. to continue to maintain its Empire.

    However much had changed by the time the EU was thought of. Churchill was a big fan - not surprising given his earlier writing (such as the 1930 article).

    The last part ('open sea') was said in anger. Churchill had a bust up with the French during world war 2. This is the full quote - poor old de Gaulle was on the receiving end:

    (Original post by Churchill)
    We are going to liberate Europe, but it is because the Americans are with us. So get this quite clear. Every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose. Every time I have to choose between you and Roosevelt, I will always choose Roosevelt.
    I think you should apologise.

    p.s. Churchill did speak in Parliament in the 50's and express some concern with the EU. Brett haven't used these quotes. That's because it is clear that Churchill's concerns are practical rather than principle. Churchill is still sure that Britain can maintain its place in the world through the Empire.
 
 
 
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