Labour MP Jo Cox killed in shooting incident in West Yorkshire
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Original post by Josb
It's obvious that his motives were political, but trying to link it with UKIP is just wrong.
I think it's clear that the atmosphere of hate now widely circulating and considered acceptable (just look at many TSR threads for examples) is fostered and assisted by the devious and manipulative public methods of UKIP, who colonised racist attitudes towards immigration and used them to further their Leave campaign, when their real motives are about removing worker's right and giving the City untrammeled freedom to prey on citizens. Farage in particular is firmly in this category, but so are his shifty companions-in-arms, Boris, Ian, Michael and the rest of the corrupt rabble.
Interestingly, when he was Mayor of London, Boris spent a great deal of time touring China and Dubai offering London property to rich speculators. Apparently immigrants are OK if they are money laundering.
Original post by Josb
It's obvious that his motives were political, but trying to link it with UKIP is just wrong.
Yeah at first I thought he was just crazy and she was just horrifically the fall person, but the fact she was leaving a library after hosting a surgery suggests that he knew that she was holding that meeting and specially targeted her. Basically a panned murder.
Absolutely deveststing that a husband is now a widower and two girls have lost their mother in the most brutal of ways because of one individual.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
This is obviously right and they feed off each other's nihilistic pseudo-religious hate and cult of violence agendas.
Far more worrying are the supposedly 'mainstream' politicians like Gove, Duncan-Smith, Johnson and Farage who appear hell bent on uncritically accepting the bigoted, lying anti-immigrant agendas created by these fringe groups and spouting them out, aided by far right people in fake-respectable roles served up to the media, like the unctuous liars in Migration Watch.
The same kinds of things went on in Weimar Germany.
Far more worrying are the supposedly 'mainstream' politicians like Gove, Duncan-Smith, Johnson and Farage who appear hell bent on uncritically accepting the bigoted, lying anti-immigrant agendas created by these fringe groups and spouting them out, aided by far right people in fake-respectable roles served up to the media, like the unctuous liars in Migration Watch.
The same kinds of things went on in Weimar Germany.
Look the far right is crazy and the far left is crazy, But Farage tier right is not crazy while you may not agree with them they are not Racist and do not lie or bend the truth any more than any other politician, you here the wage gap or 1 in 3 women are raped at uni when that can and has been debunked many times. There is a difference between saying that We need to have limits on migration and make sure we have skilled and working migrants over to lets kill all migrants they are all evil. as the second one no sensible person right wing or left would ever say.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Far more worrying are the supposedly 'mainstream' politicians like Gove, Duncan-Smith, Johnson and Farage who appear hell bent on uncritically accepting the bigoted, lying anti-immigrant agendas created by these fringe groups and spouting them out, aided by far right people in fake-respectable roles served up to the media, like the unctuous liars in Migration Watch.
The same kinds of things went on in Weimar Germany.
Far more worrying are the supposedly 'mainstream' politicians like Gove, Duncan-Smith, Johnson and Farage who appear hell bent on uncritically accepting the bigoted, lying anti-immigrant agendas created by these fringe groups and spouting them out, aided by far right people in fake-respectable roles served up to the media, like the unctuous liars in Migration Watch.
The same kinds of things went on in Weimar Germany.
That's your view on it. An alternate view would be that the politicians you've mentioned would have no need to play the immigration card had New Labour not encouraged migration as much as it did.
Even Peter Mandelson has admitted so:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10055613/Labour-sent-out-search-parties-for-immigrants-Lord-Mandelson-admits.html
It could be argued that far right groups would have less traction had migration been kept to a lower amount.
You might have no problem with large amounts of immigration but there's plenty of individuals out there that do across the political spectrum. Many in the North of England & the Midlands, which has been traditional Labour heartland are leaning towards Brexit.
I don't like that this thread about an MP bring brutally shot has turned out like this; the blame falls mainly on the perpetrator's shoulders. I do agree the far right are also partly to blame - but years of high levels of immigration cannot be ignored either as this gives the far right support unfortunately.
Farage has been saying violence is the next step, so while this incident may not be related to UKIP, he is certainly doing his bit to foster tension and hatred.
Original post by AperfectBalance
Look the far right is crazy and the far left is crazy, But Farage tier right is not crazy while you may not agree with them they are not Racist and do not lie or bend the truth any more than any other politician, you here the wage gap or 1 in 3 women are raped at uni when that can and has been debunked many times. There is a difference between saying that We need to have limits on migration and make sure we have skilled and working migrants over to lets kill all migrants they are all evil. as the second one no sensible person right wing or left would ever say.
There's a difference to educated and/or rational people. The problem is (and Farage knows this well and is good at using it) that many less educated or politically uninformed people react extremely to racist agendas and in this country, immigration = race. Therefore Farage knows perfectly well that this will whip up a hostile atmosphere, indeed, he wants that.
Original post by AperfectBalance
Look the far right is crazy and the far left is crazy, But Farage tier right is not crazy while you may not agree with them they are not Racist and do not lie or bend the truth any more than any other politician, you here the wage gap or 1 in 3 women are raped at uni when that can and has been debunked many times. There is a difference between saying that We need to have limits on migration and make sure we have skilled and working migrants over to lets kill all migrants they are all evil. as the second one no sensible person right wing or left would ever say.
I second this. I dislike UKIP, but that's because I'm mostly centre-left in my political views. If you want a genuinely racist party then try BNP or yes, Britain First.
I'm also extremely uneasy with powerful words like "racism" being thrown around like confectionery by politicians who want to discredit other parties or campaigns. There's a definite difference between wanting to control a country's borders (for economic reasons alongside others) and discriminating based on skin colour etc. You could perhaps stretch UKIP to call it xenophobic, but I don't believe racism is the issue here.
Original post by Josb
I agree, that's pretty ridiculous.
UKIP isn't really far right. There is very little difference with the right of the Conservative Party. Britain First or the BNP are far right.
UKIP isn't really far right. There is very little difference with the right of the Conservative Party. Britain First or the BNP are far right.
My point about UKIP and Farage is that they normalise racism. They make far-right opinions mainstream. Whenever they are challenged on this, they regularly go 'ah it's just the PC liberal social justice warriors banning opinions'. Rather than acknowledge that saying you don't want to live next to Romanians is racist, or admit that producing a poster reminiscent of Nazi propaganda is racist, they blame everyone else for taking offence.
Of course people can have legitimate concerns over immigration and at times PC culture does go too far. But UKIP and Farage don't try and address people's concerns, they exploit them. I'm sorry but Farage is just simply a racist. I don't buy the 'I just have legitimate concerns over immigration' line. He's a bigot.
People like Farage encourage others to hate politicians and think of them all as dirty, greedy liars trying to 'steal their country' and 'give their jobs to immigrants'.
It's no surprise that when they wind people up like this, you get increasing violence.
We are now a country which has political assassinations.
I don't blame UKIP or Farage for this attack. But I do blame them for establishing a culture that normalises and embraces far-right, bigoted views by blaming others for taking offence.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
I think it's clear that the atmosphere of hate now widely circulating and considered acceptable (just look at many TSR threads for examples)
This atmosphere has always be prevalent and political violence was even more fierce before. IRA bombs and unions' strikes under Thatcher are shockingly violent by our current standards.
I can safely say that this lunatic never went on TSR and he probably didn't watch the news, or only considered it as propaganda. He's the kind of conspiracy theorist who hates anything related to the government ("white genocide" etc.). He would have killed her, Brexit campaign or not.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
There's a difference to educated and/or rational people. The problem is (and Farage knows this well and is good at using it) that many less educated or politically uninformed people react extremely to racist agendas and in this country, immigration = race. Therefore Farage knows perfectly well that this will whip up a hostile atmosphere, indeed, he wants that.
Have you seen the BNP political leaflets? They're far, far more emotive and hostile than anything I've seen coming from UKIP.
Original post by Tempest II
That's your view on it. An alternate view would be that the politicians you've mentioned would have no need to play the immigration card had New Labour not encouraged migration as much as it did.
Even Peter Mandelson has admitted so:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10055613/Labour-sent-out-search-parties-for-immigrants-Lord-Mandelson-admits.html
It could be argued that far right groups would have less traction had migration been kept to a lower amount.
You might have no problem with large amounts of immigration but there's plenty of individuals out there that do across the political spectrum. Many in the North of England & the Midlands, which has been traditional Labour heartland are leaning towards Brexit.
I don't like that this thread about an MP bring brutally shot has turned out like this; the blame falls mainly on the perpetrator's shoulders. I do agree the far right are also partly to blame - but years of high levels of immigration cannot be ignored either as this gives the far right support unfortunately.
Even Peter Mandelson has admitted so:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10055613/Labour-sent-out-search-parties-for-immigrants-Lord-Mandelson-admits.html
It could be argued that far right groups would have less traction had migration been kept to a lower amount.
You might have no problem with large amounts of immigration but there's plenty of individuals out there that do across the political spectrum. Many in the North of England & the Midlands, which has been traditional Labour heartland are leaning towards Brexit.
I don't like that this thread about an MP bring brutally shot has turned out like this; the blame falls mainly on the perpetrator's shoulders. I do agree the far right are also partly to blame - but years of high levels of immigration cannot be ignored either as this gives the far right support unfortunately.
I think you're underestimating the extent to which Farage et al have distorted the facts.
For example, the biggest group by far of EU migrants coming in are from - wait for it - France. Yes, the dangerous, wild, uneducated and threatening French. They have invaded London 'en masse' as we say here.
Yet to listen to Farage, you would assume that 100m people, the dregs of E. Europe (to use a popular UKIP discussion phrase) are coming here right away,
Another point is education - Farage and that late-comer to race agendas, Boris, would have us believe that a tidal wave of moronic empty headed people are coming, lacking any skills whatever. The truth is the exact opposite - they have a much higher rate of degrees than the general population.
Then there's the whole 'drag on the NHS, drag on benefits' agenda - yet overwhelmingly the evidence shows that migrants from Europe do not in the main claim benefits or use the NHS.
Truth has become horrible disconnected from reality and the mass media share the blame too. Jo Cox was murdered because of all this. Some working class people from limited educational backgrounds are easily triggered into rage by misinformation which sounds convincing to them. There's been a tidal wave of misinformation.
Original post by Bornblue
My point about UKIP and Farage is that they normalise racism. They make far-right opinions mainstream. Whenever they are challenged on this, they regularly go 'ah it's just the PC liberal social justice warriors banning opinions'. Rather than acknowledge that saying you don't want to live next to Romanians is racist, or admit that producing a poster reminiscent of Nazi propaganda is racist, they blame everyone else for taking offence.
Of course people can have legitimate concerns over immigration and at times PC culture does go too far. But UKIP and Farage don't try and address people's concerns, they exploit them. I'm sorry but Farage is just simply a racist. I don't buy the 'I just have legitimate concerns over immigration' line. He's a bigot.
People like Farage encourage others to hate politicians and think of them all as dirty, greedy liars trying to 'steal their country' and 'give their jobs to immigrants'.
It's no surprise that when they wind people up like this, you get increasing violence.
We are now a country which has political assassinations.
I don't blame UKIP or Farage for this attack. But I do blame them for establishing a culture that normalises and embraces far-right, bigoted views by blaming others for taking offence.
Of course people can have legitimate concerns over immigration and at times PC culture does go too far. But UKIP and Farage don't try and address people's concerns, they exploit them. I'm sorry but Farage is just simply a racist. I don't buy the 'I just have legitimate concerns over immigration' line. He's a bigot.
People like Farage encourage others to hate politicians and think of them all as dirty, greedy liars trying to 'steal their country' and 'give their jobs to immigrants'.
It's no surprise that when they wind people up like this, you get increasing violence.
We are now a country which has political assassinations.
I don't blame UKIP or Farage for this attack. But I do blame them for establishing a culture that normalises and embraces far-right, bigoted views by blaming others for taking offence.
Isn't not wanting to live next to Romanians xenophobia? I'm pretty sure they're of the same race as many racists.
Also, with three main parties admitting themselves they don't really have a means of slowing down immigration, I can sort of see where Farage is coming from and why he might take a different view. It doesn't mean I have a problem with immigration in the slightest. I actually want us to be able to take in people from outside Europe rather than discriminating against workers because they're African or Indian or Chinese.
It also doesn't mean I like Farage though, haha. I dislike him as much as the rest of our country's politicians.
Original post by AnnieGakusei
Have you seen the BNP political leaflets? They're far, far more emotive and hostile than anything I've seen coming from UKIP.
Farage is always clever and hovers just short of the most egregious statements whilst making it clear that he totally believes all the **** chucked at migrants by the right wing tabloids, etc, who are equally culpable in this.
Original post by Quantex
Farage has been saying violence is the next step, so while this incident may not be related to UKIP, he is certainly doing his bit to foster tension and hatred.
Source?
Original post by AnnieGakusei
Isn't not wanting to live next to Romanians xenophobia? I'm pretty sure they're of the same race as many racists.
Also, with three main parties admitting themselves they don't really have a means of slowing down immigration, I can sort of see where Farage is coming from and why he might take a different view. It doesn't mean I have a problem with immigration in the slightest. I actually want us to be able to take in people from outside Europe rather than discriminating against workers because they're African or Indian or Chinese.
It also doesn't mean I like Farage though, haha. I dislike him as much as the rest of our country's politicians.
Also, with three main parties admitting themselves they don't really have a means of slowing down immigration, I can sort of see where Farage is coming from and why he might take a different view. It doesn't mean I have a problem with immigration in the slightest. I actually want us to be able to take in people from outside Europe rather than discriminating against workers because they're African or Indian or Chinese.
It also doesn't mean I like Farage though, haha. I dislike him as much as the rest of our country's politicians.
Let's make this clear. Racism and bigotry are of equal disdain. Don't try and defend it on semantics.
Saying you don't want to live next to Romanians is a mixture of bigotry and racism. If someone said 'I don't want to live next to Chinese people, or Afrians or Jews or Muslims etc' we'd call it either racist, bigoted, xenophobic or bigotry. All carry the same weight.
Of course there are legitimate concerns with immigration. Of course not everyone who opposes immigration or wants reduced immigration is racist, far from it.
But Farage, i'm finally convinced, simply is.
He purposely whips up hate, just look at his poster yesterday regarding refugees, which is almost identical to Nazi propaganda.
This isn't a man with legitimate concerns, it's a bigot trying to stir hate.
Again, wanting less immigration is not racist, but stirring up a hatred of immigrants and refugees themselves is.
It's this culture of hatred, of disdain, of anger that Farage and Trump cash in on. And it's no surprise to see that some people take it too far. Farage has normalised far right views.
No mate, it's all just the PC thought police. Producing a Nazi like poster and calling for violence are just mainstream, the problem is these wooly liberals taking offence.
A misleading way of reporting this
He didn't so much 'say it's the next step' as predict that regrettably it might be
Original post by Bornblue
No mate, it's all just the PC thought police. Producing a Nazi like poster and calling for violence are just mainstream, the problem is these wooly liberals taking offence.
Where did he 'call for violence'? Your illustration of this is silly and unhelpful
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Farage is always clever and hovers just short of the most egregious statements whilst making it clear that he totally believes all the **** chucked at migrants by the right wing tabloids, etc, who are equally culpable in this.
Indeed. What utterly makes me laugh is how he pretends to support Commonwealth migration to make out he's not racist. If we go out the EU I look forward to Farage calling for the borders to open for Commonwealth migration...
It's equivalent to 'look i'm not racist, I have a black friend'.
No person has done more to make far-right views mainstream. Unfortunately he's been hugely succesful, even if not electorally.
(edited 7 years ago)
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