Conservative propaganda machine played a part in Jo Cox's death? Watch

ChaoticButterfly
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I stress only a part. The idiot who killed her is responsible for his own actions and didn't have to do it regardless of any external societal pressure acting on him. I also don't like it when something like this happens and various political sides attempt to own it. But then everything is political. This ceasefire in the referendum is political as well as being out of respect.

But from my own objective apolitical viewpoint as possible (by which I mean just not wanting to see MPs killed or other political violence like that) I can't not see how the way the David Cameron and anyone in charge or part of the Conservative propaganda machine are playing with fire and things like this tragic event are possible outcomes. I don't believe David Cameron believes any of this but he is using it for political leverage and should take responsibility if it has negative outcomes.

Saying things like Labour are a threat to your national security and your family's security at the same time as framing them as being the party swamping the country with immigrants and refugees. The party that supports a Muslim terrorist sympathiser as Mayor. What happens when someone actually believes the labour party are a threat to their family? It's poking a part of society in a way that may encourage the kind of behaviour we really don't want. Britain First are already saying they see Muslims like Sadig Khan in places of office as occupiers and are essentially on a war footing with these Muslims.

There is a potential resurgence of fascist, thug like politics and instead of trying to manage the fire the Conservatives and other political forces are fanning the fire in the hope it will give them political success.
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ChaoticButterfly
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TL;DR

The politicians that stoked anti refugee/immigration sentiment, despite not actually believing their rhetoric share some of the blame when the fire they are deliberately pouring fuel on ends up killing a pro refugee/immigration left wing activist and MP. Actions have consequences.

There is also no getting away from the political nature of what happened. A left wing, pro immigration, pro refugee MP was potentially assassinated by a fascist. Ignoring the politics is to ignore what happened.
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Davij038
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Agreed. Both sides are guilty of this.

Alex Massie summed it up pretty well in the Spectator. This has convinced me even more that referendums on areas of national importance are a bad idea.
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Tempest II
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If you're blaming the Conservatives then surely New Labour should also shoulder some of the blame for allowing & even encouraging relatively high levels of immigration?
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username878267
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(Original post by Davij038)
Agreed. Both sides are guilty of this.

Alex Massie summed it up pretty well in the Spectator. This has convinced me even more that referendums on areas of national importance are a bad idea.
This referendum has brought out the very worst in British people. The likes of UKIP have encouraged people not just to disagree with poltiicans but to question their legitmicacy and motives, to make out they are all nasty and greedy, working to secure the Brussles dictatorship and take their jobs away.

The tone of this referendum has been aggressive and initmidating and it's no surprise when people take it too far. Heck we've had people on here questioning whether the remain campaign organised this attack...

Here's an excellent article by Jonathon Freedland
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-eu-referendum
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ChaoticButterfly
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(Original post by Tempest II)
If you're blaming the Conservatives then surely New Labour should also shoulder some of the blame for allowing & even encouraging relatively high levels of immigration?
That isn't the same. Unfortunate as it, I agree is leaders and policy makers need to take these kind of considerations into account. A more extreme example of blind New Labour idealism in causing untold misery is the Irag War.

But from the New Labour perspective they see immigration as a good thing. What I am talking about is people who may even agree immigration is a good thing for people of this country or humanity in general, but are cynically playing to dangerous forces in society to win one over on apposing parties. That is worse than the people who actually believe all this "refugees are taking over" narrative fanning the flames.
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ChaoticButterfly
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I'm probably going to see this tragic event as being part of David Camerons legacy to be honest.
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AntisthenesDogger
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I don't agree with you at all. For one, the anti-Tory sentimentality in this country is far the most militant variation of this political meanery.

I think you conflate astute claims (such as Sadiq Khan being a terrorist sympathiser) falsely with farcical notions (of which both sides have done) - but to reduce the militancy we see rising, at the deck of, what you insinuate, to be racial, is in my view, quite facile. Left-wing militancy is by far the most viviparous rather than the right-wing. Right-wing thuggery is denounced roundly, whilst left-wing is given endorsement or public-sympathisers of it prevaricate about it being thuggish at all.

As to the point they people whom are pro-refugee/pro-Islam/pro-Multicultural etc, being brandished as traitorous; many would say they are, wittingly or un-wittingly. That at no point condones the notion of murder, the greatest amount of academic literature and non-academic slurs those whom aren't in favor of such as troglodyte, bygone, prosaic, simple and brutish.

This particular murder is in no way representative of the political theater nor its reverberating acoustics. I wish it were, because we may be able to seruously discuss the hypocrisy of left-extremism which is largely tolerated, whilst the right isn't, sadly though, this incident isn't that.
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Daddy Longlegz
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It wasn't a refugee who killed her :confused:
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joey11223
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Tbh Labour is no better, I got a Labour for out leaflet handed to me last weekend (guess it's a split party as well) and it had some information in it and on the back it actually had

Leave EU: (big smiley face emote type thing), independence, increased security for your family etc etc (basically a few buzzwords)

Stay in EU: (big sad face) George Orwell's 1984 will become a reality for our country.

I mean FFS come on seriously? How can you get away with propaganda like that I don't know.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Tempest II)
If you're blaming the Conservatives then surely New Labour should also shoulder some of the blame for allowing & even encouraging relatively high levels of immigration?
I don't think that is the issue.

At least since Powell's Rivers of Hate , but probably since the 1958 race riots British politicians have been very cautious about inflaming race hate or anti-immigrant hate.

I think the valid criticism of Labour is that it has thrown the allegation of "fascist" around at anyone who questioned its immigration policy in the mainstream parties, including within Labour itself. That was mostly done by the Labour left but the leadership turned a blind eye whilst it was happening.

What that has meant is that until Farage came along with with his brand of nudge nudge wink wink racism there could be no sensible discussion of immigration policy.
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the bear
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one might as well pin the blame on libraries. the nutter spent his ample leisure time looking up Hitler fanboy stuff on t'internet at the library, then slaughtered his MP outside.
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anosmianAcrimony
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(Original post by AntisthenesDogger)
I don't agree with you at all. For one, the anti-Tory sentimentality in this country is far the most militant variation of this political meanery.

I think you conflate astute claims (such as Sadiq Khan being a terrorist sympathiser) falsely with farcical notions (of which both sides have done) - but to reduce the militancy we see rising, at the deck of, what you insinuate, to be racial, is in my view, quite facile. Left-wing militancy is by far the most viviparous rather than the right-wing. Right-wing thuggery is denounced roundly, whilst left-wing is given endorsement or public-sympathisers of it prevaricate about it being thuggish at all.

As to the point they people whom are pro-refugee/pro-Islam/pro-Multicultural etc, being brandished as traitorous; many would say they are, wittingly or un-wittingly. That at no point condones the notion of murder, the greatest amount of academic literature and non-academic slurs those whom aren't in favor of such as troglodyte, bygone, prosaic, simple and brutish.

This particular murder is in no way representative of the political theater nor its reverberating acoustics. I wish it were, because we may be able to seruously discuss the hypocrisy of left-extremism which is largely tolerated, whilst the right isn't, sadly though, this incident isn't that.
Man. I like big words, but I honestly have no idea what you're on about. I always thought "viviparous" meant something to do with being able to give birth.
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the bear
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(Original post by anosmianAcrimony)
Man. I like big words, but I honestly have no idea what you're on about. I always thought "viviparous" meant something to do with being able to give birth.
:five:

hehehe i think he left his predictive text on...
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Rakas21
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As much as i deplore this negative fear based campaigning i find this thread to be spurious and verging on offensive. Firstly, for every attack from the Tories we have an attack from lefties who honestly shout that the Tories will sell the NHS and you'll be dying in the streets ect..), secondly we don't even know enough of the facts to be able to say that he was so enamored with Cameron's message that he finally flipped vs simply being a racist who went too far this time.
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AntisthenesDogger
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(Original post by anosmianAcrimony)
Man. I like big words, but I honestly have no idea what you're on about. I always thought "viviparous" meant something to do with being able to give birth.
It means giving live birth in the Latin. So used colloquially, as it is here, it refers to the fact that the left-wing spawns current and live militancy, rather than the right-wing which are revivifying dead ideologies.
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username878267
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(Original post by Rakas21)
As much as i deplore this negative fear based campaigning i find this thread to be spurious and verging on offensive. Firstly, for every attack from the Tories we have an attack from lefties who honestly shout that the Tories will sell the NHS and you'll be dying in the streets ect..), secondly we don't even know enough of the facts to be able to say that he was so enamored with Cameron's message that he finally flipped vs simply being a racist who went too far this time.
Man up. Considering you've said things like ill people should be sterilized you have no right to take offence.


The reality is the right of the tories, UKIP and the press don't simply disagree with the ideology of labour mps, they call them terrorist sympathisers wanting to steal our jobs and impose sharia law.

They accuse them of being poster boys for a brussles dictatorship, hating Britain and wanting to ruin the country.


It's no surprise when someone takes this message too literally.

Posted from TSR Mobile
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mojojojo101
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(Original post by Davij038)
Agreed. Both sides are guilty of this.

Alex Massie summed it up pretty well in the Spectator. This has convinced me even more that referendums on areas of national importance are a bad idea.
Although I agree with you, I think you make the wrong conclusion.

The problem isn't national referendum, the problem is politicians.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by Bornblue)
Man up. Considering you've said things like ill people should be sterilized you have no right to take offence.

The reality is the right of the tories, UKIP and the press don't simply disagree with the ideology of labour mps, they call them terrorist sympathisers wanting to steal our jobs and impose sharia law.

They accuse them of being poster boys for a brussles dictatorship, hating Britain and wanting to ruin the country.

It's no surprise when someone takes this message too literally.

Posted from TSR Mobile
Don't tar me with others. I support liberal eugenics which means financial incentives on a voluntary basis, not the state forcibly imposing its will.

I still don't think we can credibly change the way we campaign simply to pander to murderers who are potentially mentally ill. I don't like fear based campaigns (you know me to be more a Major man) but i respect the right of parties to campaign how they like.
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