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pkonline
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#1
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#1
To pander to the upper and middle classes, Labour seems to be suggesting that choice in education is a good thing. Now, you expect the Tories to go down the pro-choice, elitist route, but not Labour!

Can anyone see a top-up fee-like rebellion?

From the proposals, Labour aren't even giving choice - they are rightly aiming to improve schools across the board - so why are they trying to distance themselves from their own core supporters by using this kinda language?
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undiscovered
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#2
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I just think they should stop messing around with the education system and leave it as it is for at least a few more years!
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operato
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#3
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#3
(Original post by pkonline)
To pander to the upper and middle classes, Labour seems to be suggesting that choice in education is a good thing. Now, you expect the Tories to go down the pro-choice, elitist route, but not Labour!

Can anyone see a top-up fee-like rebellion?

From the proposals, Labour aren't even giving choice - they are rightly aiming to improve schools across the board - so why are they trying to distance themselves from their own core supporters by using this kinda language?
labour been alienating their core supporters since 1997. tories are trying to put forward that a "perfectly competitive" market would increase quality but they are taking money from the public sector and throwing it at the private sector. whereas labour has been "competition amongst schools" route which i can't see it working. the top up fees was inevitable as labour wanted a large proportion of students going to uni and now they can't afford it.
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material breach
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#4
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(Original post by SiAnY)
I just think they should stop messing around with the education system and leave it as it is for at least a few more years!
certains things did need to be sorted out like the fact that Uni's could not afford to pay to keep the same standard of education
the fact that exams system did need to be changed - spread the load with AS exams so you aren't totally relying on your last years work for your Uni place
but whether we really need 50% going to uni is another matter which I am personally not in favour as surely its about the average standard of students we are producing not the sheer number
Also I think that the exam boards for exams need to be sorted out, with one board for example there would be less clashes and less mistakes on the paper, but that is another matter
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Ananke
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#5
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I would disagree that Labour intend to 'pander to the upper and middle classes'. What they and the Conservatives are both recognising, is that people with more money have more access to choice in the education market that is beneficial to their children. With more money you can move to areas that have better state schools, pay to enter your child into the private sector and choose between the wide range of, often private, specialised schools catering to a child's specific interests or needs.

These choices should be open to everyone, say both parties. However, 'choice' is missing the point. The majority of parents would want to 'choose' to send their child to the school best able to provide them with a rounded education. Therefore under the choice scheme, better schools would have to accomodate larger numbers of students perhaps lowering their overall quality, while schools that struggle currently would lose students, and worsen.

A good education is not always a class issue. Most parents want a good education for their children. Most parents would be happy to send their children to a state school if the standards were high and consistant. Specialised schools have a place in the system but what we need is an overall improvement in schools.
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Aylia
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#6
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Personally I think Labour are getting a bit mixed up about what peopl really want. They are suggesting people will be able to choose to go to ' a good school near them' but fail to mention that this will be bad for poorer schools. Surely if everyone is going for the 'good' schools , then these schools will be able to pick the best pupils - a form of selection? I could be confused about what they mean but that's what it seems like.
If this is not the case, then they are instead simply trying to improve standards in schools, but advertising this through gimmicks such as 'specialist' schools, which personally I find offputting.
The Tories seem a bit clearer on this - they want to allow schools to re-introduce selection, but are cagey about openly stating this policy.
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happysunshine
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I take it this thread has come from last nights Question Time?

I didn't quite agree with Jimmy that we don't want choice, but I do agree that failing schools need to be improved.

The Tory and Labour idea is laughable. I mean, okay they say they will expand the better schools, but surely everyone will want to go to the better schools? And therefore the worst schools will of course be even worser, and the good schools will be far too oversubscribed. This is NOT choice. ******s.
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wanderer
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#8
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Have to agree with Charles Kennedy on this one - people don't want 'choice,' they just want to be able to send their kids to a good school locally. I don't believe that the introduction of competition for students will force schools to improve either - Adam Smith's 'invisible hand' is an outdated idea. What will result will be a tiered system, with a set of lower-quality schools taking the students who either fail to get into the higher quality ones, or whose parents don't have the resources to send them beyond the local school. What really needs to be addressed are issues like the overdose of bureaucracy in schools and the constant haemorraghing of teachers, particularly young ones, from state schools, either into private schools or (for the majority) into different careers.
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Aylia
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#9
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What I find amusing is the fact that the 'new' tory plan is simply another version of the voucher system in the 80's.
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tkfmbp
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#10
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It should be the case that the only choice open to parents should be "which local, and good school should i send my kids to?"
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operato
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#11
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#11
a highly competitive market should mean an increase in quality of service...

no one do economics on this thread?
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LH
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#12
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Seems odd to me that there will be schools for those gifted in Business, Sport, Music etc there will be specialist schools, but for the academically gifted there will be no specialist (dare I use the word "grammar"?) school as that is immoral.

Joined-up government.
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LongGone
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#13
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(Original post by Lord Huntroyde)
Seems odd to me that there will be schools for those gifted in Business, Sport, Music etc there will be specialist schools, but for the academically gifted there will be no specialist (dare I use the word "grammar"?) school as that is immoral.

Joined-up government.
I think all the specialist schools are silly anyway. I honestly don't see the point.

Frankly I'm not interested in choice, I'm interested in standards rising across the board, so there are no failing schools.
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PQ
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#14
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(Original post by operato)
a highly competitive market should mean an increase in quality of service...

no one do economics on this thread?
Yup - directory enquiries is sooo much better no that it's been opened up to the free market :rolleyes:

And then there is the fantastic train service.....
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LH
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#15
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#15
(Original post by Pencil Queen)
Yup - directory enquiries is sooo much better no that it's been opened up to the free market :rolleyes:
Someone phoned 118 118 and asked them for a good directory enquiries service. They were recommended 192.
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operato
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#16
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#16
(Original post by Pencil Queen)
Yup - directory enquiries is sooo much better no that it's been opened up to the free market :rolleyes:

And then there is the fantastic train service.....
i said *should* and they aren't perfectly competitive markets anyways

specialist schools is a good idea, perhaps... i wonder if law of comparative advantage works here?
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Chubb
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#17
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Well I personaly think that Private schools are unfare - they are giving advantages to the rich children over less well off people. If they were disolved then the quality of schools across the nation would rise slightly (since the teachers that were in the private sector would have to move to non private schools).

Thisi view ties in well with my no inheritance view - think I may start a movment. :rolleyes:
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operato
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#18
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#18
(Original post by Chubb)
Well I personaly think that Private schools are unfare - they are giving advantages to the rich children over less well off people. If they were disolved then the quality of schools across the nation would rise slightly (since the teachers that were in the private sector would have to move to non private schools).
ummm... they'd all leave the country for elsewhere. if the government had a decent school system people wouldn't be at a disadvantage then.
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fishpaste
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#19
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#19
(Original post by operato)
i said *should* and they aren't perfectly competitive markets anyways

specialist schools is a good idea, perhaps... i wonder if law of comparative advantage works here?
Well unless people are going to start going to one school for their business lessons, one for their IT and one for their music, I don't think so.
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PQ
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#20
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#20
(Original post by operato)
i said *should* and they aren't perfectly competitive markets anyways
You did say should.

I do wonder why you think that the school system would become a perfectly competetive market (or at least if that's the reason 118/trains don't work competetively why that argument wouldn't apply to education)? Especially considering the huge influence geographic location has on school choice....
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