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Latest YouGov polls - Remain back in lead by 1%

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Original post by Sun_Bear
Did you even open the link I posted?


Yup. 13% have eu 'influence'.

You do realise if we want to remain part of he single market our laws will still have eu influence?
Original post by Bornblue
Yup. 13% have eu 'influence'.

You do realise if we want to remain part of he single market our laws will still have eu influence?


"...whereas that rises to 62% when EU regulations are included in addition to Acts and Statutory Instruments."

I can selectively quote too.
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Aj12
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Original post by Bornblue
Yup. 13% have eu 'influence'.

You do realise if we want to remain part of he single market our laws will still have eu influence?


I always find the line of thinking about where laws are made odd. In most cases these laws are the sort the UK would pass anyway. Brussels saves us the trouble. Secondly if these laws were completely at odds with British democratic norms we'd not implement them. Some of the most commercially restrictive laws are passed by parliament, not the EU anyway.

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Original post by Sun_Bear
"...whereas that rises to 62% when EU regulations are included in addition to Acts and Statutory Instruments."

I can selectively quote too.

The EU doesn't 'make' those laws for us.
I bet a lot of Norway's laws are 'influenced' by the EU, especially as they are in the single market - exactly where we would still want to be.

The amount of our laws actually 'made' by the EU which is the claim, is 13%

Besides as AJ said, most of these 'laws' are uncontentious, such as safety requirements for cars.
(edited 7 years ago)
i thhink we should stay in eu only racis vote leaVe
How can "young and educated" people be prepared to veto democracy?

The EU may have done good things and bad, but we did not vote in the EU decision makers and nor do we have the option to vote them out.

Big business loves the EU (inc universities), as they can lobby for policies which benefit them. They don't mind EU regulation as it is a barrier to potential competitors - those at the top can stay at the top.

Economy, immigration etc are all really minor issues. Don't overlook the most important factor of all. Our democracy is at stake!

Vote OUT.
Original post by Sun_Bear
Law from EU is most like to be more important than footpath maintenance... That makes it even worse, not better.

I want laws in this country to be decided by people in this country. Not those who live in Italy, Poland, Ukraine whatever ever other country is in the EU. People's culture and attitudes vary so much between the member states that i think it is dangerous to not have full control of our laws.


Are you happy for NATO to decide where to wage war?

Do you disapprove or approve of the UN Security Council taking decisions?

They are both examples of shared sovereignty and decision making in which the UK participates. There are many more.
Original post by readyornot
How can "young and educated" people be prepared to veto democracy?

The EU may have done good things and bad, but we did not vote in the EU decision makers and nor do we have the option to vote them out.

Big business loves the EU (inc universities), as they can lobby for policies which benefit them. They don't mind EU regulation as it is a barrier to potential competitors - those at the top can stay at the top.

Economy, immigration etc are all really minor issues. Don't overlook the most important factor of all. Our democracy is at stake!

Vote OUT.


The EU decision makers are the elected governments of Europe, so yes, we did vote them in.

So our democracy is not at stake in any way.
Original post by readyornot
How can "young and educated" people be prepared to veto democracy?

The EU may have done good things and bad, but we did not vote in the EU decision makers and nor do we have the option to vote them out.

Big business loves the EU (inc universities), as they can lobby for policies which benefit them. They don't mind EU regulation as it is a barrier to potential competitors - those at the top can stay at the top.

Economy, immigration etc are all really minor issues. Don't overlook the most important factor of all. Our democracy is at stake!

Vote OUT.


Do your research. EU decision makers are elected in.

That is the biggest gripe I have with the Leave camp. Lack of researchnand when you call them out on their errors and state qualitative and quantitative evidence from academia, economists they get shouty; going on anti-intellectual rants
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Are you happy for NATO to decide where to wage war?

Do you disapprove or approve of the UN Security Council taking decisions?

They are both examples of shared sovereignty and decision making in which the UK participates. There are many more.


Am i ok with sharing resources which don't tell me how i should live my life and don't often get used but are vital for our safety? yes
Am i ok with an organisation having evermore control over how people live their lives in the uk resulting in a dilution of my democracy over time? no
Original post by Sun_Bear
Am i ok with sharing resources which don't tell me how i should live my life and don't often get used but are vital for our safety? yes
Am i ok with an organisation having evermore control over how people live their lives in the uk resulting in a dilution of my democracy over time? no


The UK took the decision to share sovereignty via a referendum. Tomorrow there's another one - and yes, you can vote against it. You could also choose to continue to collaborate with our most important neighbours on a great many issues of common concern. If they are telling us what to do, we are also telling them.

It's like living in a street. You control your house but you vote for a council which controls your street, your town and your county. You don't get to decide separately on every single thing they decide and sometimes the things they decide annoy you - but they also fix the roads, empty the bins, pay the police and look after elderly people and parks.
Original post by jblackmoustache
Do your research. EU decision makers are elected in.

That is the biggest gripe I have with the Leave camp. Lack of research, statistics and economic and academic evidence behind them.


Yes they are elected in by the member states. But we have such a small voice out of all of those member states and the voice is set to become smaller as more and more countries join. Likewise our 1 voice was elected by a minority of the country who flip flops on key issues and lies all the time. In addition, it seems very much to be behind closed doors so who knows what hidden incentives there are?

I think the proof in the pudding is that when Cameron when to the EU to renegotiate he came back with sod all and that's with the threat of us leaving. Ie they don't give 2 shits about us.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
The UK took the decision to share sovereignty via a referendum.


When was this? I recall no referendum in the UK on joining the Common Market as we called it in those days, nor one on whether to sign the Maastricht Treaty.
Original post by Good bloke
When was this? I recall no referendum in the UK on joining the Common Market as we called it in those days, nor one on whether to sign the Maastricht Treaty.


Not sure what you are saying - are you arguing that the original referendum was misleading because there was no implication of 'sharing sovereignty' in the Common Market as it then was?

I believe at the time it was argued that Maastricht did not require a referendum because it was not a big enough change.

The proposed constitution was going to be put to a referendum but of course that was aborted by the time it reached the UK after France and others voted No.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
The UK took the decision to share sovereignty via a referendum. Tomorrow there's another one - and yes, you can vote against it. You could also choose to continue to collaborate with our most important neighbours on a great many issues of common concern. If they are telling us what to do, we are also telling them.

It's like living in a street. You control your house but you vote for a council which controls your street, your town and your county. You don't get to decide separately on every single thing they decide and sometimes the things they decide annoy you - but they also fix the roads, empty the bins, pay the police and look after elderly people and parks.


Yes which is exactly why power is and should be decentralised from government to councils so that it is much easier to have your problems dealt with. Imagine if instead your street was now governed by one major council in westminster and your local council was merely a head with all the other councils. it would be a lot harder to have your voice heard and have what you want put into place. like what is happening from a transition from uk government to eu government.
Original post by Sun_Bear
Yes which is exactly why power is and should be decentralised from government to councils so that it is much easier to have your problems dealt with. Imagine if instead your street was now governed by one major council in westminster and your local council was merely a head with all the other councils. it would be a lot harder to have your voice heard and have what you want put into place. like what is happening from a transition from uk government to eu government.


The reason for all the need for unanimity and the avoidance of majority voting is precisely because, when it comes to national governments, people are very defensive of their democratic rights and didn't want the EU to trump them. Therefore yes, every government has to agree or in some cases nearly all governments have to agree.

Democracy operates at lots of different levels - local clubs and societies, national membership bodies, trade unions, councils, parliament - why should it not also operate at an international level, as it does with the EU Parliament?

Why should democracy be limited to nation states?
Original post by Aj12
I always find the line of thinking about where laws are made odd. In most cases these laws are the sort the UK would pass anyway. Brussels saves us the trouble. Secondly if these laws were completely at odds with British democratic norms we'd not implement them. Some of the most commercially restrictive laws are passed by parliament, not the EU anyway.

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Most of the regulations we would never enact ourselves, we run in a very different way to the continent, to them unregulated practically means illegal, regulations allow stuff, but to us it's the other way around

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Original post by Fullofsurprises
The EU decision makers are the elected governments of Europe, so yes, we did vote them in.

So our democracy is not at stake in any way.


Wrong.

Our elected MEPS have no power within the machine called Europe. They might have nice little debates, however the decisions are made behind closed doors.

Have you got any idea who the ministers are, or the many presidents? I don't.
And I don't ever recall being asked to vote them in. Every single time the UK has voted against a bill their voice has gone unheard.

Who did you vote in who has any say over EU law and policy?
Original post by Sun_Bear
Yes they are elected in by the member states. But we have such a small voice out of all of those member states and the voice is set to become smaller as more and more countries join. Likewise our 1 voice was elected by a minority of the country who flip flops on key issues and lies all the time. In addition, it seems very much to be behind closed doors so who knows what hidden incentives there are?

I think the proof in the pudding is that when Cameron when to the EU to renegotiate he came back with sod all and that's with the threat of us leaving. Ie they don't give 2 shits about us.


Except he didn't get sod all.

There's a 4 year wait for full access to benefits and new unemployed EU migrants have to leave if they can't support themselves. Non Eurozone countries are also exempted from any future Eurozone bailouts.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Not sure what you are saying - are you arguing that the original referendum was misleading because there was no implication of 'sharing sovereignty' in the Common Market as it then was?


I am saying there was no pre-joining referendum of any kind.

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