Abstract_Prism
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Thread for discussion of the Great Debate that was held tonight.

Who do you think had the best argument? Who had the best speakers? Who were the biggest liars? Did you change your opinion?
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alevelstresss
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The Leave Campaign was embarrassing, spouting "take control" when in doubt and ignoring virtually every point made.
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Abstract_Prism
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Boris' concluding speech was definitely the most effective, I think.
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EconORTravel
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(Original post by alevelstresss)
The Leave Campaign was embarrassing, spouting "take control" when in doubt and ignoring virtually every point made.
The points made by Project Fear don't merit a response.

The same experts who couldn't predict the economic crash but yet benefited the most from it are now telling us to stay in Europe - They ( experts ) have power in Europe and we have no vote on who is in power.

Project Fear are supporting the banks over the people.
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jamestg
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(Original post by Abstract_Prism)
Boris' concluding speech was definitely the most effective, I think.
I thought it was a pretty awful speech to be honest, and I'm for Brexit.

He needed to capitalise on the lack of democracy, the supremacy of EU law, the outward looking nature of what we should be and the unfairness of EU migration over non-EU migration.
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math42
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Very poor standard from the speakers. The phrase "take control" used in every other sentence (and that's barely an exaggeration lol) by leave, very little positiveness from remain, massive emphasis on rhetoric over facts in general, completely dodging pretty much all the questions, overly loud, aggressive and emotional. Very little in the way of reasoned, considerate arguments, nothing but agendas which we already had from everywhere else, each side finishing each little response with "vote remain/leave!" half the time. Nevertheless I think leave tapped into the emotional side of things better though remain did have a go, Sadiq Khan in particular.
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Blimey1000
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(Original post by alevelstresss)
The Leave Campaign was embarrassing, spouting "take control" when in doubt and ignoring virtually every point made.
"Take control" is the most important point, we should drive the car, choose our destination and not let someone else drives us into a blind alley or take us to a place we we don't want to go.
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Proximo
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The audience definitely enjoyed boris' final speech some people gave standing ovation but there were also some boos.

I think Ruth and Sadiq definitely performed very well but moment of the night goes to Tim Farron who said: "Michaek gove said that Britain and he have had enough of experts, that probably why he was such a terrible education minister" - lmao I died when listening to that.

It was also very clear that the audience got sick of the phrase 'take back control' - half way in the audience kept groaning very noticeably every time the energy minister for leave mentioned those words. Although Sadiq also made a slip up when he praised Cameron's negations - even though I agree with him, most people don't.

From this debate I've seen how amazing Sadiq and Ruth are at rhetoric and they have great oratory skills especially sadiq.

Think it was pretty even although if I had to say who won, the fact that sadiq managed to use leave's arguments against them, the fact that leave couldn't answer and dodged many questions probably means I'd choose remain as the winners.

But there was only one true winner, Tim Farron and his godlike dig at Michael Gove lmao
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mrITguy
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Just watched it and wow.......what a terrible performance for the leave side and the remain.

Boris was REALLY disappointing and I expected better from him. Although his closing statement was very good.

All I can say, is thank goodness for the other panel (shame they were not the ones who were doing the debate aha as they were much better).

Overall, I think remain slightly won as they answered more questions than the leave side and were more passionate.

I hope not many people were watching this debate :P as I want to leave!!
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alevelstresss
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(Original post by Blimey1000)
"Take control" is the most important point, we should drive the car, choose our destination and not let someone else drives us into a blind alley or take us to a place we we don't want to go.
Immigration is uncontrollable, the Tory government failed to meet their aims on non-EU immigration.

Making laws? Is that really the grand old thing which will restore us to greatness? Come on, we lose control by leaving the EU.
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alevelstresss
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(Original post by EconORTravel)
The points made by Project Fear don't merit a response.

The same experts who couldn't predict the economic crash but yet benefited the most from it are now telling us to stay in Europe - They ( experts ) have power in Europe and we have no vote on who is in power.

Project Fear are supporting the banks over the people.
This logic is exactly like saying "I'm not going to listen to the weather forecast because they predicted it wrong three times". You don't stop listening to the experts just because they've been wrong a few times.

And Brexit is project fear. "Iraq and Syria joining", "immigration too high", "undemocratic unelected bla bla bla"
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EconORTravel
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(Original post by alevelstresss)
This logic is exactly like saying "I'm not going to listen to the weather forecast because they predicted it wrong three times". You don't stop listening to the experts just because they've been wrong a few times.

And Brexit is project fear. "Iraq and Syria joining", "immigration too high", "undemocratic unelected bla bla bla"
Name me the 5 European Presidents and when did you last vote for them?

In Britain we're told about Democracy at a young age something which so many people around the world would want.

The supreme court in Britain isn't even on this Island and were it's based the main language is FRENCH
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Blimey1000
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(Original post by alevelstresss)
Immigration is uncontrollable, the Tory government failed to meet their aims on non-EU immigration.

Making laws? Is that really the grand old thing which will restore us to greatness? Come on, we lose control by leaving the EU.
Don't be silly, once we have control back, immigration is totally controllable (e.g. use of point system etc).

The Tory's target is purely a political target, nothing to do with economics. I rather have the 300k immigrants that WE choose, rather than 300k that we have no control over. I really don't care about immigration per-se, in fact i think 300k is proportional to a successfully country like ours, i think it's a good thing.

The fact that you dismiss "making laws" have no direct impact on making us "great" as you called it, is disturbing and show your lack of understanding ... let me give you an example, lots of the world's/international financial contracts are reference to "English's Law or Jurisdiction" (not European or even US!) i.e. the world values our laws, which is underpinned by our underlying values as a people.

Our law is one of our greatest asset! Do not dismiss it, do not let other people make our laws for us.
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alevelstresss
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(Original post by EconORTravel)
Name me the 5 European Presidents and when did you last vote for them?

In Britain we're told about Democracy at a young age something which so many people around the world would want.

The supreme court in Britain isn't even on this Island and were it's based the main language is FRENCH
I don't care if I didn't vote for them, the fact that its 'undemocratic' is but a glimpse of the actual situation.
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Abstract_Prism
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(Original post by jamestg)
I thought it was a pretty awful speech to be honest, and I'm for Brexit.

He needed to capitalise on the lack of democracy, the supremacy of EU law, the outward looking nature of what we should be and the unfairness of EU migration over non-EU migration.
But he talked about all of those points. I can specifically remember what he said, in fact.

:confused:

And the fact that his speech got a standing ovation just goes to show how effective it was.
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Abstract_Prism
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Most memorable points for me from both sides (off the top of my head):

'Trading with the EU causes a £68 billion deficit' (From the little opening movie on the economy)
'100% of businesses are controlled by EU law despite only 6% trading with the EU.'
'20% of Germany's cars come to Britain, would they really be so insane as to put tariffs on that?'
'EU legislation unfairly discriminates against healthcare staff from Asia, America, and Australia.'
'80% of the world is not in the free market'.
'My business will maintain the current employment protection rights even if we leave the EU. Why wouldn't we?'
'The Bank of England published a report that said that immigration depresses wages.'
'Th 23rd of June could be Britain's Independence Day.'

'There is a clause in this company's contract that says if we leave the EU, they lose the contract.'
'The Leave campaign received a £600,000 donation from a former BNP member.'
'The terrorist from the 7/7 bombings escaped to Italy, but we were able to re-obtain him and he is now serving 40 years in prison. EU justice delivered.
'One question one question one question one question Boris one question one question one question Boris one question one question one question Boris one question one question one question one question one question one question one question one question.'

I think the Leave panel used the phrase 'take back control' as much as the Remain panel said 'If we leave, we can't rejoin.'

I think the Leave panel could have countered that by saying 'If we vote Remain, we won't get another chance to leave.'
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jamestg
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(Original post by Abstract_Prism)
But he talked about all of those points. I can specifically remember what he said, in fact.

:confused:

And the fact that his speech got a standing ovation just goes to show how effective it was.
He did at different points of the debate, but his closing speech didn't bring those points together.

The standing ovation was for the punchy ending.
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the bear
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(Original post by 13 1 20 8 42)
Very poor standard from the speakers. The phrase "take control" used in every other sentence
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Abstract_Prism
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(Original post by jamestg)
The standing ovation was for the punchy ending.
That's what I meant by 'effective concluding speech.' You want your endings to be punchy.
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