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Parliament should not invoke Article 50 - the referendum was a farce Watch

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    Now the dust is starting to settle a little, it's becoming clear what has happened.

    First of all, the majority for Leave was small - almost half of the voters were against Leaving.

    Secondly, we now know that most of the big promises and offers made by the Leave campaign were false, by their own admission. This includes the alleged saving of £350m a week (they admit they lied about this) and their promises on immigration - which they also now confirm they lied about. These things had a big influence on voters.

    It is also the case that many of those voting Leave were pensioners. They will not have to live long with the consequences. We will.

    Against this background, it's completely unacceptable for Parliament to surrender to ignorance and orchestrated right wing manipulative politics designed to bring in a deeper austerity agenda under Johnson and Gove.

    We must contact our MPs and tell them that we cannot and do not accept that they should vote through the invoking of Article 50, to begin the process of leaving the EU. Instead, we should have a Royal Commission or similar to enquire properly into what it would mean to leave the EU and there should be a declaration that there will be a 5-year moratorium on action until more time for reflection has been had.

    EDIT
    Anyone who agrees that the majority for Leave was far too small to be convincing, can sign the "second referendum" petition, with more than 2m signatures now, which calls for a fairer process.
    https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

    LATEST
    Surprisingly, it appears that at least one leading right-wing Tory agrees with me. Liam Fox, a key Eurosceptic, said tonight:

    "A lot of things were said in advance of this referendum that we might want to think about again and that [invoking article 50] is one of them,” said the Conservative MP.“I think that it doesn’t make any sense to trigger article 50 without having a period of reflection first, for the cabinet to determine exactly what it is that we’re going to be seeking and in what timescale.

    "
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...n-nhs-spending

    Some people who voted Leave are in for disappointments.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Now the dust is starting to settle a little, it's becoming clear what has happened.

    First of all, the majority for Leave was small - almost half of the voters were against Leaving.

    Secondly, we now know that most of the big promises and offers made by the Leave campaign were false, by their own admission. This includes the alleged saving of £350m a week (they admit they lied about this) and their promises on immigration - which they also now confirm they lied about. These things had a big influence on voters.

    It is also the case that many of those voting Leave were pensioners. They will not have to live long with the consequences. We will.

    Against this background, it's completely unacceptable for Parliament to surrender to ignorance and orchestrated right wing manipulative politics designed to bring in a deeper austerity agenda under Johnson and Gove.

    We must contact our MPs and tell them that we cannot and do not accept that they should vote through the invoking of Article 50, to begin the process of leaving the EU. Instead, we should have a Royal Commission or similar to enquire properly into what it would mean to leave the EU and there should be a declaration that there will be a 5-year moratorium on action until more time for reflection has been had.
    I voted Remain, but this is nonsense. Though hardly a surprise, coming from a pseudo-democrat like you.

    'America was too important to be left to democracy', my ass. It's a wonder how you pack this much cognitive dissonance into one brain.
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    That's utter dross and you know it.
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    Scaremongering on both sides. Two things have caused this:

    1) The actual decision to hold a referendum
    2) The ineptitude of the Remain campaign

    If Labour can't communicate their policy to their old guard then they have catastrophically failed.

    I don't care about the Leave camp. I'm never going to like Daniel Hannan. His views are completely opposed to mine. The fact that he and Farage misled voters is neither here nor there for me. They're not my kin.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    I voted Remain, but this is nonsense. Though hardly a surprise, coming from a pseudo-democrat like you.

    'America was too important to be left to democracy', my ass. It's a wonder how you pack this much cognitive dissonance into one brain.
    Why is it in any way undemocratic? Parliament is supreme in our democracy. Referendums are not part of our system and in this case, as we can see, the process of the referendum has been used to dupe, deceive and manipulate the ignorant and the uninvolved into a decision that is profoundly negative and unthought-through.

    Note that I have the support of Boris Johnson, who said yesterday that there was no rush to invoke Article 50.
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    What's done is done. Plenty of people saw through the lies of the leave campaign and all the information was out there for anyone who chose to see it. It didn't take a genius to see the reality of those arguments.

    As far as there only being a small minority, that is going to be the case with many decisions like this. We'd have been happy enough with it being 51% remain.

    I agree that it is very annoying that an older generation voting out have inflicted their will on the younger generation but as far as I'm aware the younger generation also had a much lower turn out, perhaps we'd have had more say if people had engaged. Our generation has every right to be angry at older people, we will be worse off than our parents and grandparents in many ways and this decision will likely make those things even worse. Go moan at your grandparents if they didn't support you but you can't ask for their views to be discounted.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Why is it in any way undemocratic? Parliament is supreme in our democracy. Referendums are not part of our system and in this case, as we can see, the process of the referendum has been used to dupe, deceive and manipulate the ignorant and the uninvolved into a decision that is profoundly negative and unthought-through.

    Note that I have the support of Boris Johnson, who said yesterday that there was no rush to invoke Article 50.
    No rush =/= don't invoke it. And you're smart enough to know the difference.

    If this vote had turned out the other way around - by the exact same percentage points - you'd be lauding it as an example of democracy at its finest, you'd love the result and say it was binding for ever.

    That you can't accept that shows what a truly narrow minded individual you are. It's really very sad.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Why is it in any way undemocratic? Parliament is supreme in our democracy. Referendums are not part of our system
    I'm well aware that referendums are not legally binding. And you're well aware that it was informally promised by all sides that the result would be respected. Let's not pretend otherwise.

    Let's also not pretend that, had the opposite outcome been achieved and the government had chosen to leave anyway, you wouldn't have made a dozen threads calling the government undemocratic, wasteful, malicious, driven by a short-term ideological/partisan agenda, and so on.

    and in this case, as we can see, the process of the referendum has been used to dupe, deceive and manipulate the ignorant and the uninvolved into a decision that is profoundly negative and unthought-through.
    This is true of more or less every election and referendum. If you're this worried about dishonest campaigning, your efforts are better invested in trying to have honest campaigning mandated by electoral law.

    As for 'ignorant' and 'uninvolved' - stop being so childish.

    Note that I have the support of Boris Johnson, who said yesterday that there was no rush to invoke Article 50.
    'No rush' is not the same as what you're arguing - that Parliament shouldn't invoke it at all, and instead have a five-year moratorium on it (and it's quite apparent what you really wish to happen at the end of those five years).

    Seriously, as disappointed as you are, it's done. Learn to live with it.
    Also note that I don't much care for what Boris Johnson says or thinks.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Now the dust is starting to settle a little, it's becoming clear what has happened.
    We have seen democracy in action.

    First of all, the majority for Leave was small - almost half of the voters were against Leaving.
    There was still a 52% majority and the turnout was high (72%). This is representative of the British public. The British people have spoken.

    Secondly, we now know that most of the big promises and offers made by the Leave campaign were false, by their own admission. This includes the alleged saving of £350m a week (they admit they lied about this) and their promises on immigration - which they also now confirm they lied about. These things had a big influence on voters.
    There were lies from both campaigns.

    It is also the case that many of those voting Leave were pensioners. They will not have to live long with the consequences. We will.
    That is true but they still have as much of a right to vote as we do. They have a right to vote on what they think is right for their own children and grandchildren.

    Against this background, it's completely unacceptable for Parliament to surrender to ignorance and orchestrated right wing manipulative politics designed to bring in a deeper austerity agenda under Johnson and Gove.
    Not going to happen.

    We must contact our MPs and tell them that we cannot and do not accept that they should vote through the invoking of Article 50, to begin the process of leaving the EU. Instead, we should have a Royal Commission or similar to enquire properly into what it would mean to leave the EU and there should be a declaration that there will be a 5-year moratorium on action until more time for reflection has been had.
    Contact your MPs as much as you like, I don't think they will go against democracy.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Also note that I don't much care for what Boris Johnson says or thinks.
    Lies. I bet you have naked posters of him in your bedroom.

    (Also, totally agree with you btw)
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    It's going to be completely unacceptable to large numbers of people to watch Parliament nodding this through like a stupid donkey.

    I think we are going to have to demand that Parliament listens to us, in very large numbers, come the actual decision on this.

    We cannot let the country sleep-walk into the stupidest decision for a great many years merely to satisfy the egotistical rantings of nobs like Nigel Farage.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It's going to be completely unacceptable to large numbers of people to watch Parliament nodding this through like a stupid donkey.

    I think we are going to have to demand that Parliament listens to us, in very large numbers, come the actual decision on this.

    We cannot let the country sleep-walk into the stupidest decision for a great many years merely to satisfy the egotistical rantings of nobs like Nigel Farage.
    If the Government doesn't invoke article 50 you are going to see a Ukraine style riot.

    I'm sorry but the banners have already been called from the most serious neo-nazi's to the regular eurosceptic's. This will be civil war between the North & the South if you carry on with this coup on democracy.

    In event of this happening there a good chance you will loose. You've only ever had to deal with 1 group of the right-wing on the streets. Now your going to get all of them in one go.

    Its so bad even us dooms day preppers are being asked to join the fray.

    I hope you realise what your getting yourself into here.

    This isn't some petty challenge where the EDL will be mouthing at the UAF. It will be a full blown arab spring show down.
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    That's utter dross and you know it.

    Stop being so childish.


    For an intelligent person you do an incredible job of making yourself look extraordinarily petty and stupid.
    Come back when you've got something constructive to say.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It's going to be completely unacceptable to large numbers of people to watch Parliament nodding this through like a stupid donkey.

    I think we are going to have to demand that Parliament listens to us, in very large numbers, come the actual decision on this.

    We cannot let the country sleep-walk into the stupidest decision for a great many years merely to satisfy the egotistical rantings of nobs like Nigel Farage.
    If the EU pulled its finger out and proposed real reform, instead of its leaders making bitter and snide comments about Britain, then the potential for a second referendum might be on the cards with the outcome that people choose to remain. This entire result is the failure of the EU to listen to the concerns of the British people and offer a viable package of reform, even though you think it's just down to Farage.
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    If the Government doesn't invoke article 50 you are going to see a Ukraine style riot.

    I'm sorry but the banners have already been called from the most serious neo-nazi's to the regular eurosceptic's. This will be civil war between the North & the South if you carry on with this coup on democracy.

    In event of this happening there a good chance you will loose. You've only ever had to deal with 1 group of the right-wing on the streets. Now your going to get all of them in one go.

    Its so bad even us dooms day preppers are being asked to join the fray.

    I hope you realise what your getting yourself into here.

    This isn't some petty challenge where the EDL will be mouthing at the UAF. It will be a full blown arab spring show down.
    Note the fascist threats of violence there. The true face of UKIP and the reality of Brexit 'politics'.

    Not since the 1930s and Oswald Moseley has this country faced such a threat from the hate-filled extreme right.
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    (Original post by anosmianAcrimony)
    Come back when you've got something constructive to say.
    It's far more constructive than the nonsense FoS is spouting.

    This assault on democracy from those who simply don't like the decision is awful.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Note the fascist threats of violence there. The true face of UKIP and the reality of Brexit 'politics'.

    Not since the 1930s and Oswald Moseley has this country faced such a threat from the hate-filled extreme right.
    You don't understand. The rules have changed. That is mainly the reason why you lost.

    Its not just the right-wing that has sided against you. Part's of the left-wing have also condemned you especially left-wing Libertarians, whole communities of religions and even trade unionists.

    If you think its going to be a simple case of calling your own banners like making a phone call to organise a resistance against a racist EDL rally you are going to get half the numbers your use too. Your going to see a lot of betrayal.

    Take Trade Unionist & Socialist Coalition. They have Eurosceptics. Take the Labour party. They have Eurosceptics.

    Trouble for you is in the far Right-Wing all of them are Eurosceptics and I haven't met a Libertarian yet who has chosen to remain.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    We must contact our MPs and tell them that we cannot and do not accept that they should vote through the invoking of Article 50, to begin the process of leaving the EU.
    Or to save time of everyone contacting their individual MPs we could just have everyone contact a single point? Perhaps simplify that contact so it's just a yes/no decision? We could call it a national referendum and then accept that the majority will decide what they wish to happen..
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    'I hate democracy and we should keep having referendums until Remain wins'
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    Full of Suprises you need to look at the racist map.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028

    Here you will find that all Labour's northern heartlands have turned anti-EU.

    You will be out manned.
 
 
 
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