EU mythbuster #1: The EU helps small farmers & greenery

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Rorschach II
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#1
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#1
Feel free to use as copy pasta, and feel free to ask for directions to statistics.

In case anyone asks “where’s muh sources!?!?” they’re at the bottom of the post.

Considering I practically got all of this just by reading the UK government webpage/pdf file on the Basic Payment Scheme, I’m surprised this has been so largely ignored. I’ve ignored the stuff on the stalling of development in LEDCs/third-world countries and the increased food prices.

CAP is a broken system with extraordinarily bad effects for the environment, with no hope for a reform after Tony Blair failed to do so in 2005 [where he sacrificed 20% of our rebate for nothing.] When analysed major red flags pop up, yet it is the fallback of many on reasons why not to do a Brexit.

The suicide rate for UK farmers was almost 4 times higher in 2013 than the average for everyone in the UK. The causes cannot be solely attributed to CAP of course, but CAP could have been reformed to be a lot better, and help the most vunerable. I would think reforms would help reduce it.

The amount UK farmers can claim is determined by the amount of land they have at their disposal, quite literally. This has prompted farmers to destroy so much forestry so that they are able to claim more, despite not necessarily using it, at all. This causes increases in the amounts of floods, with no gain. This offsets any increases in biodiversity, protection of hedgerows etc. etc. that the EU might come up with.

Farmers can only claim in the Basic Payment Scheme if they have more than 5 hectares of agricultural land. In 2014 in England alone there were 19233 farmers with less than 5 hectares of land, making them unable to claim. The EU discriminates against small farmers in this manner. As it’s a part of EU law, this makes it institutionalised discrimination. The EU also gives a competitive advantage to bigger farmers under the scheme. This contradicts the libertarian values of the EU, like the reasons given for the prohibition of national state aid and the lesser duty rule, thereby the EU partakes in institutionalised hypocrisy. The EU furthers the economic inequality between farmers.

At the beginning of 2015 the Basic Payment Scheme replaced the Single Payment Scheme. This replacement caused the loss in the ability for the farmers with less than 5 hectares to claim.

Farmers must comply with the greening rules. One of them is called crop diversification. Farmers with land between 10 to 30 hectares must have 2 different crops, and the largest crop must not occupy over 75% of the arable land. Farmers with 30 hectares or more must have 3 different crops grown. The largest crop must not cover over 75% of the land, and the two largest crops together must not cover 95% of the land. The increases in biodiversity is offset by all the foresty destroyed so farmers can claim more. This also doesn’t allow the smaller variant of farmers to adapt to the demand of the market, there’s increased manufacturing costs, so compliance costs increase, so cost of production increases.

Farmers younger than the age of 41 are entitled to a 25% bonus, which is set off the average entitlement, and it only counts up to their first 90 entitlements. The EU therefore takes part in institutionalised ageism, though people might prioritise young people being inclined into the crippled farming industry.

I note I haven't mentioned about EAFRD; only EAGF and direct payments.
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shawn_o1
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#2
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don't forget about the many millions of 'EU directives' that similar industries like fishing have been burdened with
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Doones
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(Original post by shawn_o1)
don't forget about the many millions of 'EU directives' that similar industries like fishing have been burdened with
Oh yes. Those damned fishing quotas.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7110766.html

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illegaltobepoor
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To be honest its nothing but speculation till the 2 years after we leave the EU. Everything said now is just noise.
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username1022139
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My favourite - "the EU is a democratic institution with democratically elected officials"
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Kieran1996
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#6
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Nice to see some research and sources.

It's all nice criticising the EU and their methods however what exactly is the alternative?

For atleast the next two years everything is in the air and all over the place and there is no guarantee that things will be better.
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Kieran1996
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(Original post by jake4198)
My favourite - "the EU is a democratic institution with democratically elected officials"
MEPs
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username1022139
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#8
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(Original post by Kieran1996)
MEPs
The leaders of the European Union are all unelected bureaucrats over whom national governments and ordinary people have no control. Albeit they're elected by MEPs, having representatives electing the presidents of the EU and its bodies is a gateway for manipulation and corruption.
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Kieran1996
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#9
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(Original post by jake4198)
The leaders of the European Union are all unelected bureaucrats over whom national governments and ordinary people have no control. Albeit they're elected by MEPs, having representatives electing the presidents of the EU and its bodies is a gateway for manipulation and corruption.
All leaderships have manipulation and corruption

If Gove comes to power as PM, he is Rupert's puppet and even if the Tory MPs vote them in, really we should be having a GE... What I am trying to say is that every leadership has "dirty tactics"

Also you wouldn't become a politician if there wasn't money to be made
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Doones
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(Original post by illegaltobepoor)
To be honest its nothing but speculation till the 2 years after we leave the EU. Everything said now is just noise.
So you are continuing to ignore experts? In this case from the NFFO, who are at the sharp end. Great.


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Asolare
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#11
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#11
(Original post by jneill)
So you are continuing to ignore experts? Great.


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Gove said we were fed up of listening to experts so naturally we gotta listen to Mr. Gove, don't you know how politics works? :/
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username1221160
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#12
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If CAP was removed, an estimated 90% of farmers would go out of business in the UK. 55% of farm income comes from CAP and without it, UK agriculture just isn't sustainable.

The average mixed farmer (which includes the bulk of small farms) has an income of just over 20k. Lose a bit of that income and they might as well pack it in and start stacking shelves in Tesco.

Which is why leave campaigners (Micheal Gove if I remember correctly) have said they'll maintain payments.
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Doones
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#13
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(Original post by Quantex)
Which is why leave campaigners (Micheal Gove if I remember correctly) have said they'll maintain payments.
Out of the £350m that was earmarked for the NHS. And Wales. And Cornwall...

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RF_PineMarten
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#14
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(Original post by XcitingStuart)
The amount UK farmers can claim is determined by the amount of land they have at their disposal, quite literally. This has prompted farmers to destroy so much forestry so that they are able to claim more, despite not necessarily using it, at all. This causes increases in the amounts of floods, with no gain. This offsets any increases in biodiversity, protection of hedgerows etc. etc. that the EU might come up with.
Spoiler:
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Good post, except for this bit. Farmers in the UK (not sure about other EU countries) don't destroy woodland for farmland. You need a felling license to cut down an area of woodland and they pretty much without exception have conditions for replanting the site. They can theoretically cut it down and "replace" it somewhere else, but this is extremely rare from what I can see and I've never seen any examples of it happening.

However, the UK government does have targets for new woodland planting, and in England at least they are only meeting about half the yearly target. And we are already the least wooded country in Europe.

Everything else in your post is good, and there are certainly some big problems with the CAP which are difficult to address given the huge vested interests of certain groups. Whatever we replace CAP with should have a much bigger environmental focus, and it needs to solve the problem of larger farms getting the most funding (which reinforces this economies of scale thing).
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illegaltobepoor
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(Original post by jneill)
So you are continuing to ignore experts? In this case from the NFFO, who are at the sharp end. Great.


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I've read the article. I've spoke to the fisherman in Grimsby and I am involved in the Industry.

I currently live in Lincolnshire and this matter is being spoken about by nearly everyone in the area.

I have told you its speculation but maybe I should give you a more detailed response.

The NFFO can't say if there will be any increase in trawlers because the base of the matter is all about replenishing fish stocks in the North sea.

Because little to nothing is known about the methods of replenishing the stocks this matter is open to huge speculation!

There might not be as many trawlers as there use to be but there will be a huge increase in fish farming.

The trouble is at the moment is there is a huge deficit of skilled workers in the whole of Europe. All the Colleges around Lincolnshire & Humberside have cut funding in Aquaculture & Horticulture and there is still in-certainly because Article 50 hasn't been activated. What I can tell you is as soon as certainly is restored that we are leaving the EU for good there should be capital available to any future concepts of fish farming in the mouth of the Humber & surrounding shores. This is because all the EU red tape is being lifted.

I personally am currently trying to source a industrial unit near the mouth of the humber to build a Koi Carp plant and produce fresh vegetables & salads for the local markets. This venture will be part of the local college and it will allow the college to train Aquaculture technicians.

It won't involve any boats though but I am sure in the next 10-20 years the humber will be full of fish farms and small vessel's.
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Doones
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(Original post by illegaltobepoor)
I've read the article. I've spoke to the fisherman in Grimsby and I am involved in the Industry.

I currently live in Lincolnshire and this matter is being spoken about by nearly everyone in the area.

I have told you its speculation but maybe I should give you a more detailed response.

The NFFO can't say if there will be any increase in trawlers because the base of the matter is all about replenishing fish stocks in the North sea.

Because little to nothing is known about the methods of replenishing the stocks this matter is open to huge speculation!

There might not be as many trawlers as there use to be but there will be a huge increase in fish farming.

The trouble is at the moment is there is a huge deficit of skilled workers in the whole of Europe. All the Colleges around Lincolnshire & Humberside have cut funding in Aquaculture & Horticulture and there is still in-certainly because Article 50 hasn't been activated. What I can tell you is as soon as certainly is restored that we are leaving the EU for good there should be capital available to any future concepts of fish farming in the mouth of the Humber & surrounding shores. This is because all the EU red tape is being lifted.

I personally am currently trying to get my hands on a industrial unit near the mouth of the humber to build a Koi Carp plant and produce fresh vegetables & salads for the local markets. It won't involve any boats though but I am sure in the next 10-20 years the humber will be full of fish farms and small vessel's.
I appreciate the considered reply

But I strongly suspect the EU red tape will be replaced by British red tape. But then it will be our red tape, so that's ok...

And apropos of nothing, how do you make fresh veg & salads from Koi Carp?
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the bear
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tbh the fish do not care who is catching them... they die in pain in any case.
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illegaltobepoor
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#18
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(Original post by jneill)
I appreciate the considered reply

But I strongly suspect the EU red tape will be replaced by British red tape. But then it will be our red tape, so that's ok...

And apropos of nothing, how do you make fresh veg & salads from Koi Carp?
You filter the water to remove the ammonia and then you put it into a surface area container to produce liquid plant food.You then pump the plant food into pipes that go into vertical towers with sponge inside. The water drips down the sponge and drips onto plant roots. These vertical towers are either on a frame inside a green house or they are next to LED lights.You then take the plant, chop off its roots, put the plant into the packaging line and put the roots into a bio-matter bin.Inside the bio-matter bin the roots will break down as flys lay their eggs on it and fly larvae eat the rotting matter. The larvae then try to escape the bin put end up falling down into a collection shoot where they join the fish-food as a suppliment to the koi carp diet.
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Doones
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(Original post by illegaltobepoor)
You filter the water to remove the ammonia and then you put it into a surface area container to produce liquid plant food.You then pump the plant food into pipes that go into vertical towers with sponge inside. The water drips down the sponge and drips onto plant roots. These vertical towers are either on a frame inside a green house or they are next to LED lights.You then take the plant, chop off its roots, put the plant into the packaging line and put the roots into a bio-matter bin.Inside the bio-matter bin the roots will break down as flys lay their eggs on it and fly larvae eat the rotting matter. The larvae then try to escape the bin put end up falling down into a collection shoot where they join the fish-food as a suppliment to the koi carp diet.
Cool!
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illegaltobepoor
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#20
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I have 1 of these

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