What's the link between the freedom of the individual and the sovereignty of the stat

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RobML
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#1
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#1
*of the state?

Just curious after all this banging on about this thing called "sovereignty"

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TercioOfParma
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#2
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#2
I assume you're referring to brexit?

Either way, in this country we vote for MPs, which creates a government. MPs can propose bills and they are voted on, and they can be passed or not passed into law. IE We select the representatives of the people, who have the power to propose, rescind and vote on legislation.

Under the EU, the parliament has no such power, an entity not decided by the people proposes laws that were not in any way consented by the people and that cannot also be rescinded by the parliament either.

Therefore, under this system, the removal of the EU, and hence the regaining of the UK's sovereignty, gives us more freedom as individuals as our laws cannot be overruled by an unelected entity.

Aside from that, there isn't really a relationship I can think of.
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_Fergo
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#3
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#3
(Original post by TercioOfParma)
I assume you're referring to brexit?

Either way, in this country we vote for MPs, which creates a government. MPs can propose bills and they are voted on, and they can be passed or not passed into law. IE We select the representatives of the people, who have the power to propose, rescind and vote on legislation.

Under the EU, the parliament has no such power, an entity not decided by the people proposes laws that were not in any way consented by the people and that cannot also be rescinded by the parliament either.

Therefore, under this system, the removal of the EU, and hence the regaining of the UK's sovereignty, gives us more freedom as individuals as our laws cannot be overruled by an unelected entity.

Aside from that, there isn't really a relationship I can think of.
No you don't - you never voted for any of the House of Lords members, so you did not "elect" them to represent you.

That is utter crap. EU has supreme competence on matters all states agreed upon, and which are necessary for the harmonisation of trade. The members of the EU parliament are also democratically elected, and eventually the EU parliament will become stronger to reflect that.

You seem to be forgetting the courts here. Elected does not equal good. The courts do a much better job protecting your rights than the government ever will. By removing EU law, you're effectively reducing their powers (until the assert their own authority, that is, which is inevitable).

So no.

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TercioOfParma
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#4
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#4
(Original post by *Stefan*)
No you don't - you never voted for any of the House of Lords members, so you did not "elect" them to represent you.

That is utter crap. EU has supreme competence on matters all states agreed upon, and which are necessary for the harmonisation of trade. The members of the EU parliament are also democratically elected, and eventually the EU parliament will become stronger to reflect that.

You seem to be forgetting the courts here. Elected does not equal good. The courts do a much better job protecting your rights that the government ever will. By removing EU law, you're effectively reducing their powers (until the arrest their own authority, that is, which is inevitable).

So no.

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I was referring to the commons, the lords does effectively nothing anyway. I never said the EU parliament wasn't, what I did say is that they cannot propose or rescind laws.

I never said it was, but elected positions represent the will of the people. do they not? It was the people's will to elect Hitler after all. Isn't that ultimately relevant to the freedom of the individual, to choose one's government?
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IronicalMan
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#5
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(Original post by *Stefan*)
No you don't - you never voted for any of the House of Lords members, so you did not "elect" them to represent you.

That is utter crap. EU has supreme competence on matters all states agreed upon, and which are necessary for the harmonisation of trade. The members of the EU parliament are also democratically elected, and eventually the EU parliament will become stronger to reflect that.

You seem to be forgetting the courts here. Elected does not equal good. The courts do a much better job protecting your rights than the government ever will. By removing EU law, you're effectively reducing their powers (until the assert their own authority, that is, which is inevitable).

So no.

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Exactly, the USSR did such a great job not being elected.
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Manchester_123
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#6
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#6
(Original post by *Stefan*)
No you don't - you never voted for any of the House of Lords members, so you did not "elect" them to represent you.

That is utter crap. EU has supreme competence on matters all states agreed upon, and which are necessary for the harmonisation of trade. The members of the EU parliament are also democratically elected, and eventually the EU parliament will become stronger to reflect that.

You seem to be forgetting the courts here. Elected does not equal good. The courts do a much better job protecting your rights than the government ever will. By removing EU law, you're effectively reducing their powers (until the assert their own authority, that is, which is inevitable).

So no.

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Part of the voting process to elect representatives in the UK does not include outsourcing decisions and power to others. We voted for David Cameron and others to decide our laws, we did not vote for them to have others decide our laws. And I'm a remainer but I can admit that the EU is anything but democratic. I suggest you grow up and read up.
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_Fergo
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#7
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(Original post by TercioOfParma)
I was referring to the commons, the lords does effectively nothing anyway. I never said the EU parliament wasn't, what I did say is that they cannot propose or rescind laws.

I never said it was, but elected positions represent the will of the people. do they not? It was the people's will to elect Hitler after all. Isn't that ultimately relevant to the freedom of the individual, to choose one's government?
Does effectively nothing? Are you serious? Apart from their powers to significantly delay and thus destroy bills, they are a significant scrutinising chamber, where most alterations occur.

I don't get this point. You said the EU is undemocratic - well, the Parliament isn't...

Do they? Only referenda can truly show what the people will, which is of course not viable. You elect people because you want them to represent you - what they actually do can significantly differ from what you want. As I said, being elected doesn't mean good or even democratic. You may vote someone because they promised something and they can simply not do it *cough* 350m on the NHS *cough*

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jeremy1988
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#8
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#8
This isn't about absolute freedom of the individual, it's about the freedom of governments to govern locally and show sensitivity to local conditions.

A big central government like the EU is going to impose rules and regulations on everyone without regard to local conditions. For instance, I heard there was legislation pending that would mess with the UK's ports because they're privately owned, where a lot of other EU countries have state owned ports. The rules were made with most of the EU in mind, but conditions are different in the UK and thus they've created a mess.

The EU need not be intentionally malevolent to cause problems. I just believe that European countries are too different from each other to be governed centrally and have the rules imposed be fair and reasonable to everyone.
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TercioOfParma
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#9
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(Original post by *Stefan*)
Does effectively nothing? Are you serious? Apart from their powers to significantly delay and thus destroy bills, they are a significant scrutinising chamber, where most alterations occur.

I don't get this point. You said the EU is undemocratic - well, the Parliament isn't...

Do they? Only referenda can truly show what the people will, which is of course not viable. You elect people because you want them to represent you - what they actually do can significantly differ from what you want. As I said, being elected doesn't mean good or even democratic. You may vote someone because they promised something and they can simply not do it *cough* 350m on the NHS *cough*

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Yes, it shapes laws, but it doesn't decide on them. does it? If they tried that crap, the commons could easily remove them like that, we had an issue with the Lords like that in the early 20th century over one of David Lloyd George's budgets. Well, yes it is, since the representatives can't decide on laws or rescind laws. Well, people put their will in a representative that knows the ins and outs and represents their political position don't they, direct referenda on most things are a stupid idea since not everybody knows the ins and outs on things that may well be insignificant to them. It is a person individually consenting to a representative, so it is a clear manifestation of individual freedom.

You may vote for them, you may be deceived sure, but then they'd simply get elected out the next time.

Anyway, anybody who actually though for 5 seconds knew that the way they proposed to spend the £350m was advisory and thus was not necessarily accurate.
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Nurne
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#10
The EU Parliament ensures fair and equal representation of all member states. It is utilitarianism in the form of a government. The EU British Commisioner is appointed by our government. Our government is represented in the Council of Europe. And we vote for MEPs to represent us the British citizens in the European Parliament. In the history of the U.K. we have opposed a passes motion 2% of the time.
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_Fergo
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#11
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#11
(Original post by Manchester_123)
Part of the voting process to elect representatives in the UK does not include outsourcing decisions and power to others. We voted for David Cameron and others to decide our laws, we did not vote for them to have others decide our laws. And I'm a remainer but I can admit that the EU is anything but democratic. I suggest you grow up and read up.
Only that it does -courts are not your representatives. The Leave campaign was furious at the ECJ for essentially destroying "sovereignty". This power will now go to national courts, it will not evaporate.

You voted on the House of Lords to decide and shape your laws? Interesting developments.

So yah, it's me the one who has to grow up and read

(Original post by TercioOfParma)
Yes, it shapes laws, but it doesn't decide on them. does it? If they tried that crap, the commons could easily remove them like that, we had an issue with the Lords like that in the early 20th century over one of David Lloyd George's budgets. Well, yes it is, since the representatives can't decide on laws or rescind laws. Well, people put their will in a representative that knows the ins and outs and represents their political position don't they, direct referenda on most things are a stupid idea since not everybody knows the ins and outs on things that may well be insignificant to them. It is a person individually consenting to a representative, so it is a clear manifestation of individual freedom.

You may vote for them, you may be deceived sure, but then they'd simply get elected out the next time.

Anyway, anybody who actually though for 5 seconds knew that the way they proposed to spend the £350m was advisory and thus was not necessarily accurate.
Of course it does. I don't think you use how the Lords work. It is meant to be the impartial, highly expert chamber that verifies and corrects bills. It may begin any bill just like the commons (though, just like the commons, it is usually the government that starts most bills due to time restraints). Bills can be massively altered in the HoL, and may even be destroyed due to time penalties (bar money bills).

The Commons cannot just remove the Lords - it would be unconstitutional at this point, unless it was mutually agreed. Thinly reason the Commons are now superior is because the House of Lords (as the court that is, i.e. now Supreme Court) recognised the very old Parliament Acts. But that doesn't mean Lords no longer decide on laws.

So, what you're arguing is that you want free trade deals but without any penalty? Surely you see the arrogance here...? The UK is not the British Empire - you have to listen to rules if you are to benefit from the massive trade that happens in the EU. The EU did not introduce freedom of movement and whatnot without the knowledge and permission of the states - every single state signed and accepted the rules. They weren't imposed to anyone.

Precisely. Not everyone knows the ins and out on things. Then why do you think it is a good idea to allow people to vote on such a significant topic when the vast majority (remain or leave) lack any knowledge of how the EU works? All they were fed is that the EU 'sacks' and that is what they recite. Mind you, this is not a vote you can simply choose differently next time like you do with the elections - it's a done deal and game over.

Advisory? This picture suggests the exact opposite.
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Gora The Xplorer
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#12
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#12
This is a moronic strawman since it presupposes that the only reason anyone ever voted to leave the EU was for reasons of personal freedom.
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Rorschach II
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#13
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(Original post by Nurne)
The EU Parliament ensures fair and equal representation of all member states. It is utilitarianism in the form of a government. The EU British Commisioner is appointed by our government. Our government is represented in the Council of Europe. And we vote for MEPs to represent us the British citizens in the European Parliament. In the history of the U.K. we have opposed a passes motion 2% of the time.
A representative works or speaks on behalf of someone else;
It is illegal for a commissioner to work on behalf of a member state, including their own;
Ergo a commissioner is not a representative of the member state which appointed the commissioner;

MEPs cannot initiate, repeal or amend legislation.

Where did you get that statistic?

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seaholme
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#14
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#14
(Original post by TercioOfParma)
Under the EU, the parliament has no such power, an entity not decided by the people proposes laws that were not in any way consented by the people and that cannot also be rescinded by the parliament either.
So were all those MEPs we democratically voted for figments of my imagination?
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TercioOfParma
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#15
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#15
(Original post by seaholme)
So were all those MEPs we democratically voted for figments of my imagination?
No, but they cannot propose or vote to rescind laws.
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