Turn on thread page Beta

Sunderland voters on why they voted for Brexit watch

Announcements
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:


    This is absurd. They barely even mentioned the EU. The first person shown begins with "Because Cameron..."

    Do these people not know the difference between their own government and the EU? Or do they think saying "I won't hold you accountable and will instead punish the people that have championed my rights for 40 years" is some sort of **** you to the government?

    They're absolutely clueless. Everything they talk about is to do with our government. Most of them even talk about Westminster and don't mention the EU. Are they just confused?????
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    Name:  th.jpeg
Views: 334
Size:  37.1 KB
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    This is why I think the EU was too complex a thing to put to a national referendum. People literally have no clue. The idea we've just dealt our economy a killer blow because people thought they were sticking two fingers up at the top 1% or that the effects of austerity have anything to do with the EU... you can only laugh otherwise you'd cry tbh. Especially because the only consequence of this is going to be more and more austerity, as we have less and less money as a nation. People didn't even understand where their money was coming from x___x
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by JordanL_)


    This is absurd. They barely even mentioned the EU. The first person shown begins with "Because Cameron..."

    Do these people not know the difference between their own government and the EU? Or do they think saying "I won't hold you accountable and will instead punish the people that have championed my rights for 40 years" is some sort of **** you to the government?

    They're absolutely clueless. Everything they talk about is to do with our government. Most of them even talk about Westminster and don't mention the EU. Are they just confused?????

    No, they're not confused. Do you think every Remainer was an eloquent student like yourself?


    They feel abandoned by the Labour party and they never had much truck with the Tories.

    They feel left behind by Westminster and in an increasingly globalised world that seems to just focus on London.


    A vote against the status quo that has served them so poorly over the last 30 years is a logical choice.

    Or do you think every Labour voter votes labour because they're super on-board with all their policies? Half of labour voters just hate the Tories.


    It's just the way things work. I'm sorry you don't like it. Not everyone can be a middle-class student warrior like yourself.

    I would worry about a lot more than 'Brexit' if you're a left-winger. Labour will not form a government in a generation unless it starts to represent these people again. If you think Brexit is bad...start panicking.
    • TSR Support Team
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    TSR Support Team
    (Original post by Supersaps)
    I would worry about a lot more than 'Brexit' if you're a left-winger. Labour will not form a government in a generation unless it starts to represent these people again. If you think Brexit is bad...start panicking.
    Labour represents these people's actual interests much better than the Conservatives ever could, this is just the effect of several decades of incessantly telling working class voters that they can blame all of their problems on one of various scapegoats e.g. (1) The EU (2) Immigrants (3) Labour 'causing' the financial crisis etc. rather than admitting it's because of failures by domestic governments to invest money into helping the less well-off.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Well done to Sunderland for Voting Leave.

    Ignore the arrogant remain supporting smart arse wannabes.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    Labour represents these people's actual interests much better than the Conservatives ever could, this is just the effect of several decades of incessantly telling working class voters that they can blame all of their problems on one of various scapegoats e.g. (1) The EU (2) Immigrants (3) Labour 'causing' the financial crisis etc. rather than admitting it's because of failures by domestic governments to invest money into helping the less well-off.
    Tell them that. It's not me you need to convince.


    I also think there's been several decades of incessantly telling Labour voters that the Tories are the source of all evil in the world, so I don't think the issue of blame is necessarily the problem.


    The issue is, most of the Labour leadership wants to change peoples' views to those of the Labour party. In reality, It's the Labour party that needs to change - not peoples' views. I think most Labour members (not voters) start from the premise that 90% of the electorate is wrong and must be converted to the 10%'s way of thinking. It just doesn't work like that.


    The Labour party needs to have a long, hard look at itself. It just doesn't have the broad appeal it used to. Now it's just a protest movement for students and Trade Unions. I think we're in for a good 10-15 years of Tories governance unless it sorts these things out.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Supersaps)
    They feel abandoned by the Labour party and they never had much truck with the Tories.
    They feel left behind by Westminster and in an increasingly globalised world that seems to just focus on London.
    A vote against the status quo that has served them so poorly over the last 30 years is a logical choice.
    I guess the problem is that all of that is internal politics, determined by our domestic government. Nothing to do with this referendum at all.

    It's like responding to a bully by punching the random guy standing next to him.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by seaholme)
    I guess the problem is that all of that is internal politics, determined by our domestic government. Nothing to do with this referendum at all.

    It's like responding to a bully by punching the random guy standing next to him.
    Yep. But if the bully is friends with the random guy...


    The enemy of my enemy is my friend. The friend of my enemy may just be my enemy too...
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Supersaps)
    Yep. But if the bully is friends with the random guy...


    The enemy of my enemy is my friend. The friend of my enemy may just be my enemy too...
    ...but the bully was not friends with the random guy. He was a random guy not some kind of sidekick. The random guy actually helped us by trading with us and giving us things, and handing out money at tuck time, if we're going to continue with this metaphor.

    It is moronic to hit the random guy x___x Now we still have the bully, more powerful than ever, and we don't have the random guy any more.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by seaholme)
    ...but the bully was not friends with the random guy. He was a random guy not some kind of sidekick. The random guy actually helped us by trading with us and giving us things, and handing out money at tuck time, if we're going to continue with this metaphor.

    It is moronic to hit the random guy x___x Now we still have the bully, more powerful than ever, and we don't have the random guy any more.
    Well, Cameron was the public face representing the EU in the referendum. So, I think the association was quite ingrained in various peoples' minds.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Supersaps)
    Well, Cameron was the public face representing the EU in the referendum. So, I think the association was quite ingrained in various peoples' minds.
    I know and I think it was a massive mistake to have him as the public face of anything.

    However the idea that people voted to get rid of the EU on the basis that they are somehow mentally associating the EU with government policy and therefore they think voting out of the EU somehow puts two fingers up to the government...

    That is clearly poor, poor logic, and it means they voted out of the EU without actually understanding its relationship with this country, the significance of it in our economy or indeed anything much at all if they thought they could somehow deliver themselves from austerity (an entirely domestically created policy of Mr George Osbourne) by doing so.

    There are reasons for voting Leave that are thought through, although I myself do not agree with them. But the above specifically is clearly not a good reason because it doesn't follow logically, at all. It's punching the random guy. And it's a widely held reason why people voted out.

    So how come you're going around defending it? It's reasonable only through ignorance of how the world actually works, and what the EU actually is. The blind association of the EU with Cameron and then somehow therefore finding the EU at fault for all of our domestic policies.

    People like yourself stand up and say that it's unfair to criticise people who voted on that basis as somehow ignorant - well frankly, I think it IS ignorant, it's like the very definition of ignorant because people voted for something clearly false to achieve a state which is ironically probably the very opposite of what they thought they were achieving.

    And I'm not saying all Leave voters voted on that basis, and who knows maybe if they understood how it all actually worked, maybe those same people would STILL have voted to leave. Some had other arguments, even. BUT it's clear that a lot did vote on this basis.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by seaholme)
    x
    A thoughtful post. Thank you. Certainly more balanced than the load of old tosh I've seen from others.

    Ignorance is never a good thing. But I think being ignorant and right is still better than being clever and wrong!

    I'm not defending the ignorance but trying to communicate why I think so many people voted for Brexit without resorting to patronising these voters as the OP and many others seem to want to.



    It's odd because historically the left wing has been against the EU as it's very pro big business and far removed from the direct democracy that the left-wing normally like. Take for example, Corbyn. He's part of this traditional left wing that is very suspicious of the EU and of things like the TTIP that wants to reduce environmental and food regulations. It will probably mean that jobs switch to the US as their trade unions arn't very powerful etc etc

    The fact that the left-wing has suddenly become very very pro-EU probably strikes a rather hollow note to again working class voters that have heard the left bang on against these things for years.

    Again, Cameron also had very strong anti-EU rhetoric and suddenly jumps on the Remainer bandwagon.

    To a down-to-earth straight talking tradesman, it just doesn't have any force.

    SS
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Do these people not know the difference between their own government and the EU? Or do they think saying "I won't hold you accountable and will instead punish the people that have championed my rights for 40 years" is some sort of **** you to the government?
    You need to listen to them, not insult them. On chap had lost his job. Why should he give a flying f**k about Cameron or Europe? Listen.

    Sure, this vote was about the EU, but people have used it for a variety of different reasons. They are not wrong. They are disenfranchised. They have a voice just like anyone else.
    Offline

    10
    ReputationRep:
    Some other European country will be grateful for that shiny Nissan factory.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    They don't care about London, but the first place that the Tories are going to introduce their cuts is in the North East.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ByEeek)
    You need to listen to them, not insult them. On chap had lost his job. Why should he give a flying f**k about Cameron or Europe? Listen.

    Sure, this vote was about the EU, but people have used it for a variety of different reasons. They are not wrong. They are disenfranchised. They have a voice just like anyone else.
    Well, the sensible thing would be vote at the local elections if they don't like the Government.

    The EU spends more money on them than the Government will.The North East receives the most in the country in Aid.
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    Journalists can to a large extent present whatever story they want.

    Those people haven't been asked why they voted to leave the EU. They were asked something like: do you think Cameron is in touch with people in the north east?

    Obviously these people have other reasons for wanting to leave but distrust of politicians definitely helped the leave campaign. Project fear didn't work because people didn't believe Cameron or the thought if can't get much worse so lets shake the cart.
    Offline

    7
    ReputationRep:
    Project fear was 'brown people take muh job' 'EU take muh freedom' 'EU makes us take Iraqi refugees', and other such lies. The leading figures of the leave campaign have all jumped ship and run off, with Boris only taking the leave position to try and differentiate himself from Cameron, before quickly dropping out when he realized he can't win. The pound is the lowest it has been in decades and we are entering another recession. Also it has caused a resurgence in interest in Scotland leaving the UK - so they have unintentionally kickstarted the breakup of the UK.

    There is not a single policy that we can currently pass outside the EU that we couldn't pass inside the EU. The leave figureheads who havn't tucked tail and run off are suggesting a Norway style deal, which basically means we have to do everything we did before as part of the EU, except we don't get a vote or a veto. They will pretend that this is some kind of improvement to avoid admitting that they only took the leave position to try and differentiate themselves from their politician rivals, but a Norway style deal is not an improvement at all as we will have the follow the EU rules while having no say in writing them.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Well, the sensible thing would be vote at the local elections if they don't like the Government.
    Oh for pettys sake - how does that work. So the rest of the country votes Tory and the north votes Labour. Anyone thinking that we have a democracy in this country is delusional. What with the first-past-the-post system and safe seats, the election each time is only swung by a handful of people. My own vote is worthless.

    This vote for the people of Sunderland was presumably a rare opportunity to stand up and be heard. And the OP clearly would prefer they went back into their hole?
 
 
 
Poll
Do you think parents should charge rent?
Useful resources

Groups associated with this forum:

View associated groups

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.